[Keith Seymore]

Originally Posted by MH 1964

Where was this picture taken at? Is this the only picture, looks like a cool car!

I'm afraid I don't know: this is a picture that Pont406 found and is the only one I have ever seen.

My interest is that supposedly there were five white "engineering" cars provided to participating dealerships and this would likely be one of those five.

K

[pont406]

Originally Posted by Keith Seymore

I'm afraid I don't know: this is a picture that Pont406 found and is the only one I have ever seen.

My interest is that supposedly there were five white "engineering" cars provided to participating dealerships and this would likely be one of those five.

K

Info I have on this pic, it was taken at Dragway 42 in Ohio, Keith, I would say your right about this possibly being one of the "engineering" cars, I read what your dad said (in the GTO article), about seeing these cars back in the day. there's a good chance several of the Knafel cars from 62 to 72 would still be floating around Ohio somewhere, if the VIN's were known, it would help track them down!

[Transporter]

OK, haven't seen it in this thread, and can't find anything about in the seach. Was a 69 gto that used to run out of the Easton, Pa, Phillipsburg, NJ. area. I believe the car had some sponsership from Briedinger's speed shop in Tatamy,Pa It was all black with the Godfather logo from the orig. movie on the side of the car, The logo had stings coming off of the letters to a puppeteers cross above. Had seen it a couple of times at Island Dragway outside of Hackettstown NJ. Also used to see a red 59/60 catalina when I was 6/7 called the vulture, had a little carton vulture painted on the front fenders. Just curious. Thanks

[MH 1964]

THANKS Guys I parted a white 65 gto, black int. out around 1977 that was hit hard in the rear end, I think I still have the fenders and support to the car. The other gto that I parted was white had blue int, rusted bad but had modifications to it that was race related, that was around 1983. I think, I still have the title and tags some where, but have to do some digging. Dragway 42 was a neat place about a hour from me! I think history of these kind of cars are cool. Many of the gtos around here, were rusted beyond repair, or raced and wrecked. I think race cars that survived like this one (if it did) and the stories behind them is American history at its best!

[pont406]

Originally Posted by MH 1964

THANKS Guys I parted a white 65 gto, black int. out around 1977 that was hit hard in the rear end, I think I still have the fenders and support to the car. The other gto that I parted was white had blue int, rusted bad but had modifications to it that was race related, that was around 1983. I think, I still have the title and tags some where, but have to do some digging. Dragway 42 was a neat place about a hour from me! I think history of these kind of cars are cool. Many of the gtos around here, were rusted beyond repair, or raced and wrecked. I think race cars that survived like this one (if it did) and the stories behind them is American history at its best!

Hi, If you can dig those titles or tags up out of your stash, the VINs could be PHS'ed to find out more about them, and if you still have the fenders,etc from either of them, the thickness of the metal could be checked, to see if they are thinner gauge than general "stock" sheetmetal. which these "engineering" cars were suppose to have a certain amount of thinner steel body panels, AKA "Factory Lightweights" also probably were "No option" cars (radio/heater delete, etc) it may not be the case, but that's how Merle Green found out what his Knafel 66 GTO was, thru PHS. as that 65 car in the pic may have ended up on Knafel used car lot.

[fasteddy]

Hey you New York natives. Does anyone from the Whiteplains area remember a 64 GTO with "Agravation" on the front fender? He was a street racer and a track racer at Dover. Pics would be a bonus for me.

[MH 1964]

Originally Posted by pont406

Hi, If you can dig those titles or tags up out of your stash, the VINs could be PHS'ed to find out more about them, and if you still have the fenders,etc from either of them, the thickness of the metal could be checked, to see if they are thinner gauge than general "stock" sheetmetal. which these "engineering" cars were suppose to have a certain amount of thinner steel body panels, AKA "Factory Lightweights" also probably were "No option" cars (radio/heater delete, etc) it may not be the case, but that's how Merle Green found out what his Knafel 66 GTO was, thru PHS. as that 65 car in the pic may have ended up on Knafel used car lot.

I will look at the sheetmetal If I find the tags is there anyway on the data plate to find this info. Where they built close to the same time and what was the month ???? Are they all white in color for sure???? What color was the int.?

[tom s]

Kieth,im sure there were many of the lightweight cars that were never doc.When ever there were new dies for sheetmetal they used thinner material to test them out.Im told those panels were put aside for engineering for the factory race teams.Bill Bliar told me he had a 65 car also.Tom

[Keith Seymore]

Originally Posted by tom s

Kieth,im sure there were many of the lightweight cars that were never doc.When ever there were new dies for sheetmetal they used thinner material to test them out.Im told those panels were put aside for engineering for the factory race teams.Bill Bliar told me he had a 65 car also.Tom

Thanks Tom - I'm encouraged to hear you say that.

K

[sdbob]

I have a 67 Firebird that was a dealer installed RA car.It was raced in NHRA Div 1 stock circuit.The doors were repainted .You can just make out I believe'PROBE' on the doors.Anybody from New Jersey remember the car?

[pont406]

Originally Posted by MH 1964

I will look at the sheetmetal If I find the tags is there anyway on the data plate to find this info. Where they built close to the same time and what was the month ???? Are they all white in color for sure???? What color was the int.?

well, I don't know if the Data Plate would have any clues, although having an X on the data plate was suppose to mean the car was pulled "off the line" for some reason, so i've read. the VIN # would need to be PHS'ed and hope that might give some info, on delivery dealer, options, although PHS docs aren't alway right, optionwise, in some cases.

[Keith Seymore]

Originally Posted by MH 1964

I will look at the sheetmetal If I find the tags is there anyway on the data plate to find this info. Where they built close to the same time and what was the month ???? Are they all white in color for sure???? What color was the int.?

Originally Posted by pont406

well, I don't know if the Data Plate would have any clues, although having an X on the data plate was suppose to mean the car was pulled "off the line" for some reason, so i've read. the VIN # would need to be PHS'ed and hope that might give some info, on delivery dealer, options, although PHS docs aren't alway right, optionwise, in some cases.

These five should be white, low option cars (4 spd, no power anything, no a/c, maybe even radio delete). Interiors were either blue or red (Jesse's car was blue). Date code would have to be earlier than 09A (probably by a couple weeks at least). My car is an 09A build and the five were already complete and marshalled behind the Engineering building before my car was built.

Up until a few months ago, I had thought they would all have an "X" after the date code. While it is still likely in the case of these five, the gentlemen here have pointed out to me three other cars with an "X" date code that are obviously not factory race cars (ie, non - white, vinyl tops, a/c, high option content, etc). While we're still not sure they have pretty much convinced me that the "X" means Pilot vehicle as opposed to "factory racer".

I would expect the PHS to be pretty good for these, assuming them to be Pontiac assembly plant builds. What I haven't seen, thus far, is any kind of handwritten notes/special handling on the build/shipping manifests on any cars that I have looked at. I am kind of disappointed in that since that seems to be standard practice on the earlier special builds (like the '63 SD cars, for example).

K

[tom s]

Kieth,I dont think they can be doc. at all.From what i heard it was something that just happened,I think inside people doing favors for selected guys.Have you had the metal ultra sounded to compare it with other fenders.Like i said,I was told new dies were tested with lighter material so it was not unusual to have them around.Also im sure some cars got them and never knew about it.Tom

[Keith Seymore]

Originally Posted by tom s

Kieth,I dont think they can be doc. at all.From what i heard it was something that just happened,I think inside people doing favors for selected guys.Have you had the metal ultra sounded to compare it with other fenders.Like i said,I was told new dies were tested with lighter material so it was not unusual to have them around.Also im sure some cars got them and never knew about it.Tom

I agree - I don't really have much hope of documenting anything too conclusive, but I always have one eye open for any interesting "penciled in" note, or magazine article with an offhand comment or whatever (after all, I had been searching without success for cars with an "X on the data plate for about 25 years. After joining this group I was shown three within a six month period ).

I have been doing some work with an ultra sound meter; the difficulty is that automotive sheetmetal is relatively thin (compared to cast iron pipes, for example) so that it is difficult to separate differences in sheetmetal thickness from random variation or erroneous readings. I will keep at it and see if I can extract something useful.

Lastly, I think you are correct about some getting special cars and not knowing about it. I asked both Howard Maseles and Arlen Vanke about the '65 GTOs they drove. They both volunteered the cars were "engineering cars" but didn't know what specifically was special about them beyond that...

K

[MH 1964]

Originally Posted by pont406

well, I don't know if the Data Plate would have any clues, although having an X on the data plate was suppose to mean the car was pulled "off the line" for some reason, so i've read. the VIN # would need to be PHS'ed and hope that might give some info, on delivery dealer, options, although PHS docs aren't alway right, optionwise, in some cases.

Well I looked I can not find the title and tags yet but I do write down all the cars I have stripped VIN# etc. I did keep the info on this car but I only wrote down half of the info on the data plate and I will share that with you. its as follows 1st line, 09A-X 2nd line, 65-23737 pon1588 3rd line 217-b thats all??? 4th line 2LP 5th line, 5N I do have the VIN# The only thing I have left from this car are seats and one taillight I will take the VIN# and send to phs so we all know what this GTO was! maybe I will find the tags and title because when I got it I had a clear Ohio Title but that was at least 20 yeasr ago THANKS!

[Jerry H.]

The 09A-X sounds promising.

[x-bird2]

Transporter--i'll ask kenny B. or his brother about the godfather car. i drop in on them ever couple of weeks. they still have their speed shop in tatamy and it's all of 2 miles down the road. good guys lot of racing and help to racers around here over the years from them.

[pont406]

Originally Posted by Keith Seymore

I agree - I don't really have much hope of documenting anything too conclusive, but I always have one eye open for any interesting "penciled in" note, or magazine article with an offhand comment or whatever (after all, I had been searching without success for cars with an "X on the data plate for about 25 years. After joining this group I was shown three within a six month period ).

I have been doing some work with an ultra sound meter; the difficulty is that automotive sheetmetal is relatively thin (compared to cast iron pipes, for example) so that it is difficult to separate differences in sheetmetal thickness from random variation or erroneous readings. I will keep at it and see if I can extract something useful.

Lastly, I think you are correct about some getting special cars and not knowing about it. I asked both Howard Maseles and Arlen Vanke about the '65 GTOs they drove. They both volunteered the cars were "engineering cars" but didn't know what specifically was special about them beyond that...

K

Keith, I have seen them check thicknesses of the sheetmetal, here at the stamping plant, when they have a problem with metal splitting,etc, A guy will come out with a handheld device, (looks to be an ultrasound type of deal) and check it for stretching, etc. seemed to be fairly accurate, at least they thought so!

[242177P]

Originally Posted by Keith Seymore

My interest is that supposedly there were five white "engineering" cars...

White is, costwise, the cheapest color and painting them all in the same color means they don't have to worry about other colors mixing in. I've heard that when they build (built?) fleet vehicles they would run off hundreds at a time... Just makes sense that pilot cars would be given to race teams. They're not going to object to thinner metal and they're more than likely going to paint them.
Don't want the new model taking too long to hit the track either.

[Jack Gifford]

This isn't a 'Pontiac' question, although it came up while re-reading about Chrisman's M/T hemi Pontiac running at the '63 Winternationals. The caption of this lead-in photo to the Hot Rod Magazine article says the Howard's Cam dragster was "powered by a '63 Dodge with special hemisphere heads." What could these heads have been? Did Chrysler provide prototype "new hemi" heads to racers as early as February 1963? The hand-lettered rocker covers look more like early hemi, to me. But the engine does appear to be a '63, with the distributor up front, so they couldn't have been M/T aluminum (early) Chrysler hemi heads.