[70 conv goat]

I am looking to upgrade my distributor in my 69 firebird, to hopefully solve cold start issues, gain more room / access, and limit / provide adjustability of the mech.advance.

The engine is a 428, with KRE D port heads heads, RA 4 cam equiv. 1.6 rockers, and a rochester q-jet. It dynoed at 475hp. I currently am running an HEI that has had some upgrades, including an HEI MSD digital module, taylor wires, etc. I am running 9 degrees initial, and around 29-30 mech, for a final of 38. Optimum per KRE is 10-12 initial and 32 total. Cold starting is an issue... I am currently running a stock cap and ignition (I know, my bad), after suspecting issues with my accel cap and ignition. I am not running any vacuum advance.

I am looking at the MSD ready to run, but also noted the Summit ready to run.

What coil have others run with the MSD R to R?

Any experience with the Summit? Other, such as Accel, better value than the MSD?

Run a ignition box or not?

This is a street car, I'm not looking to tweeking out the last hp, my desire is functionality / reliability / and to some degree, simplicity / minimal crap in the engine bay...

Thanks in advance for your help.

Dave

[mchell]

said it many times before.....Accel Street Billet.....small stock footprint, easy to set up, plenty of advance\spring options, and best of all at least 100 bucks cheaper than the MSD....

[PITTSBURGH 64]

Stock points distributor with MSD-6AL and there adjustable timing control gets my vote. Easy spring access and its compact. But its not expensively complicated and for some reason people don't like that....
You will love being able to adjust timing on the fly.


My RA-4 cammed 462 with stock lifters idles like a champ with this set up. My Cliff's Quadrajet doesn't have a choke and my heads have the heat filled.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gx5Vrfolw84

[Schurkey]

Unless there's something WRONG with your HEI, you've already got what you need. Limit the centrifugal advance with a different center plate; or by welding/brazing the slots in the centrifugal advance mechanism. (on the top of the distributor shaft)

If it'll throw enough spark to jump the gap of an HEI spark tester; and the pickup and ignition coil are the right ones for a Pontiac, (clear plastic connector on the pickup coil, and the red and WHITE wires on the ignition coil) your "hard starting" is probably not a fault of the distributor.

HOW is it "hard starting"? Won't crank? Cranks slow? Cranks fast but won't run? Stalls after starting? Cranks and backfires? (double check your pickup coil and ignition coil!!!) Something else?

http://www.chevelles.com/techref/ftecref5.html

[70 conv goat]

Hard starting, car cranks well, hesitates to fire, is getting fuel (carb was on my 70 GTO with no issue), back fires through carb at times, doesn't want to idle when cold. At times I've had to use starting fluid...I've also had issues with fouling plugs.

I'm open to working the HEI, but didn't want to spend the time trying to set the slots in the plate. I tried going through Bob at D&D to get one of his kits. I talked to him a couple of times, but then he did not get back to me and I eventually gave up. I have not tried the HEI spark tester. I will check the pick-up and ignition coil.

I did not read the entire article Schurkey, but it does look like a wealth of information, thanks for passing along.

mchell, which coil are you running?

Pitt 64, do you then convert it to an electronic ignition with the 6AL? Where is a good source for an original points distributor?

[PITTSBURGH 64]

70,
Ames sells NOS aluminum units #PN526AF, that's where I bought mine.
https://secure.amesperf.com:8443/qil...rt_num=PN526AF

-MSD-6AL PN8680
http://www.msdignition.com/ignition_6_6420.htm

-MSD Timing control PN8680
http://www.msdignition.com/tc_2.htm

I use the points to trigger my MSD. They will last forever firing such a light load. The MSD automatically adjusts dwell so long as you have the points set properly to begin with.
I've researched ignition systems and this is the best set up for a street car that never revs over 5500.

You might want to check into the Ignition boxes that let you map your own spark advance curve. That way you can do away with the springs and weights in the distributor.

My car idles like a champ with a RA-4 cam with 84 degrees overlap!

[Schurkey]

Originally Posted by 70 conv goat

Hard starting, car cranks well, hesitates to fire, is getting fuel (carb was on my 70 GTO with no issue), back fires through carb at times, doesn't want to idle when cold. At times I've had to use starting fluid...I've also had issues with fouling plugs.

Classic symptoms of a misadjusted choke and/or other carb 'n' fuel system problems.

NOT classic symptoms of ignition trouble.

First Guess: You'll spend a LOT of money screwing with the ignition if the problem is actually in the carb.

[Colin]

I have used a couple of different Mallory units. A lot of people have problems with them but so far the 2 I have used have continued to work perfectly.

[Pontirag]

You get what you pay for. I would go with MSD. I bought a summit distributor a while back and although it was new it had a few problems. The springs lost their tension very quickly and the rubbing surface on the centrifugal weights was rough and ratchety(?). I put in old springs and it ran better. I polishes up the rubbing surface and it seemed better, then after about 4 months the module went out.

I currently have two msd Distributors and 6al's and after 10 years with one set up and two years with the other I have never had a problem yet.

[Geoff]

Hard starting when cold can be plug gap too big. The cold dense air requires more ignition voltage to fire the gap. Couple that with reduced cold cranking voltage & you get the classic 'no spark syndrome'. What happens is the spark current will arc to ground inside the cap, or leak to ground along the surface of the plug leads, etc. Easy to check: If you are using large plug gaps, like 0.060", try 0.040".

[old66tiger]

I bought a MSD ready to run and it is a good unit. Well built and installs just fine. My only concern is that the vacuum advance was advertised as 10 degrees of additional timing and I get about 17 degrees. I made a stop bushing to limit the amount of vacuum canister travel and it works good with 10 degrees of vacuum advance travel. FWIW, the crane adjustable vacuum can does not work well in the MSD since the stop tab in the kit is too big to fit in the distributor.

My timing is rock solid and I like the various curves you get with the unit. I was considering the Accel, however when I called with some questions regarding the unit before purchasing, I felt as if they weren't too crazy about answering questions. MSD tech has been very good.

[69birdboy]

More often than not, cold start problems are in the carb / fuel system.

[Formulas]

There is full voltage to the HEI at all times ?

[70 conv goat]

My plug gap is at 30 thou, per KRE's original set-up. I discussed with Jeff K. a hotter plug, and he gave me some options.(apparently others with their heads have found that works well)

I had similar issues with a Demon carb I went through extensively. With the q-jet, the choke is locked open. I did make a point of going out and manually setting the choke about 3/4"s closed, still issues with cold starting.

From all the feedback (including Kauffman), I'm leaning to the MSD R to R, with the Blaster 2 or SS coil. I won't have a rev limiter unless I get a 6AL box correct?

[unruhjonny]

I see others have already said it - but chances are your cold start issues are in hte carb - not hte distributor.

I for one like a stock "points" distributor - a few of the reasons, are:
- compact size
- ease of maintenance
- cheap parts

I don't care for HEI's because of their bulk, and I have had them die on me (the magnetic pick-up) - you get no warning, then 'poof' - you can't drive.

I have never had cold start issues; I might not have a stroked motor, but a 744 cammed 400 in the dead of winter should exibit cold start issue - if there are any present; it always fired up like a champ! (It used to be my daily driver)

[70 conv goat]

On the carb issue:

There is fuel at the carb prior to cold starts. I am running a carter mech. pump.
I have a dedicated larger gauge wire going to the HEI that is actually on a manual switch and has full power directly off the fuse box.
This carb has peformed very well on my 70 GTO with a 400, and a bit of a cam (understanding that this is a very different set-up...)
I am not running a choke at this time.

Suggestions?

[Schurkey]

Originally Posted by Schurkey

Classic symptoms of a misadjusted choke and/or other carb 'n' fuel system problems.

NOT classic symptoms of ignition trouble.

First Guess: You'll spend a LOT of money screwing with the ignition if the problem is actually in the carb.

Originally Posted by 69birdboy

More often than not, cold start problems are in the carb / fuel system.

Originally Posted by unruhjonny

I see others have already said it - but chances are your cold start issues are in hte carb - not hte distributor.

Originally Posted by 70 conv goat

With the q-jet, the choke is locked open. I did make a point of going out and manually setting the choke about 3/4"s closed, still issues with cold starting.

NOW you tell us the choke is locked open? OF COURSE you're having cold start problems.

Originally Posted by 70 conv goat

I am not running a choke at this time.

Suggestions?

My suggestion is to FIX THE CHOKE.

[69birdboy]

I've found that HEI in 69 firebird is too large to fit properly. A stock points type or an accel or something similar fits great and works great. Well, stock points work great if you have an msd box, anyway.

[JSchmitz]

Originally Posted by Schurkey

NOW you tell us the choke is locked open? OF COURSE you're having cold start problems.


My suggestion is to FIX THE CHOKE.

I disagree. I have never used a choke on my GTO (Several different carbs). If they are set up properly, they will start easily and idle in the coldest weather.

[PITTSBURGH 64]

I don't run a choke either and never had any starting troubles.