[Mr. P-Body]

Pontirag,

The "rap" on Pontiacs outside the "Pontiac community" is that they ARE "rod eaters". In olden times, when forged rods were more of a "wish list" item than an attainable part, MANY a Pontiac died a horrible death due to rods flying out of the blocks.

The early forgings were pitiful to say the least. As others have said, the cast rods are probably a bit better than the "rubber" rods.

The NASCAR 389s and 421s had 4340 forgings of VERY high quality. The old SD rods, IMO, are much better than the 5140 versions found in the 455 SD. Still, Federal Mogul supplied "AP" series rod bearings in .060" undersize for the purpose of lowering bearing speed to enable the rod to "live" a much longer life. Comparing Smokey Yunik's SD engines to any production stuff is apples-to-donuts. He WAS the guy that made it so the Pontiacs would live 500 miles at 6,500 RPM. The 421s in Joe Weatherly and Fireball Roberts' '62 Cats (most dominant single model/season in racing history) were really 389 "strokers", using the same techniques we use today, to reduce the main bearing diameter, thus reducing the bearing speed and lowering oil temperature accordingly. he (Smokey) also fully understood the concept of low-end torque better than most other builders of the day. He knew better than to try to make the Pontiac do things it wasn't intended to do, so he insisted on "taller" gears than the Chevy/Ford/Dodge crowds were running. The results are indisputable. 31 of 36 races in '62!

A few years back, we were building a 400 for circle track racing here in Richmond. I spoke with Wayne Hoens of "Hoens and Eanes" "fame" (Busch GN 3.8 Buicks, dominant before they went to V8s). He told me to NOT put an oil temp guage in the car. He said "Just like the Windsor (351 Ford with 3" mains), you DON'T want to know!" He's responsible for the quickest/fastest "stock block" Pontiac in the area currently (James Emory's '65 Tempest, runs in the high 8s on motor).

The weakness in the oiling system is that there is no "priority" oiling for the mains. Everything must pass through the lifter gallery before the mains get "fed". It's not difficult to "fix" it with solids, but with hydraulic lifters, there's not much one can do except jack up the pressure (causing higher temps) and increase the volume.

FWIW

Jim

[OINK 1]

I think 455SD's are 8640 steel or 8620 Something with a 86xx.

"The bitterness of poor quality remains long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten"

By USA !!

At least spend your Government check on USA parts !

Pontiac Gregg

[TIN TIGR]

maybe i wrote it incorrectly peabody..they do make rods for pontiac length applications which are very common..and cost comparable

or you could just run a huge dome

on the political side of imports..when the poor get hungry enuf, they will eat the rich..ask marie atoinette...anybody feeling peckish?

[BVR421]

Originally Posted by Me Notyou

Realistically speaking, aside from the hardware purchase, how much would it cost to blueprint and recondition a factory set of rods?

Approximately the same as a set of Tomahawk economy forged rods.

[WDCreech]

Originally Posted by Me Notyou
"Realistically speaking, aside from the hardware purchase, how much would it cost to blueprint and recondition a factory set of rods?"

Originally Posted by BVR421
"Approximately the same as a set of Tomahawk economy forged rods."

And you wouldn't have as good of rod.

[Bob Eiler]

In 1974, I wrote Pontiac Engineering for the specifications of the 73-74 SD rod. In the reply it was stated that the material is 8640 steel. I have also seen in print a couple of times they are 8640 steel including Pete McCarthy"s writings. My opinion is that 5140 is one notch above 1053. In 15 years of racing I broke one rod and that was the rubber rod. I have used fully prepared cast rods, butter rods, early SD, and late SD. In 1986 I ran a best of 9.73 using fully prepared SD rods going through the traps at 7300 rpm. I don't think 5140 would have survived. I wouldn't use them now because there are so many options available. I 'm also surprised no one mentions Callies Compstar 6.8 rods. That's all I use on upper budget engines. Case in point , I built a 904 HP 499 BBC hydroplane engine using Compstars. The engine seized coming out of a turn at 5500RPM. He had an oil leak(loose oil filter) The engine spun 6 rod bearings. The bearings were welded to the crank and rods' but didn't break. One pint of oil was left in the pan. I get to build this engine twice!

[Me Notyou]

Originally Posted by WDCreech

Originally Posted by Me Notyou
"Realistically speaking, aside from the hardware purchase, how much would it cost to blueprint and recondition a factory set of rods?"

Originally Posted by BVR421
"Approximately the same as a set of Tomahawk economy forged rods."

And you wouldn't have as good of rod.

Ah. I would do this then spend the money later on and get the better rods when needed. It's too bad we don't have an option for an American rod around 500 bucks.

[WDCreech]

Originally Posted by Me Notyou

Ah. I would do this then spend the money later on and get the better rods when needed. It's too bad we don't have an option for an American rod around 500 bucks.

I don't know what freight would be, but Ken Brewer has H-beam and I-beam, in either stock or 6.8" length, Tomawks for under $400. Why build it twice?

[gtofreek]

Back when I was a young punk and didn't know any better, I had a 12.5:1 428 in my 65 GTO. I bought an adjustable Nitrous kit for it and installed it with the biggest jets it came with. I think they were rated at 225 or 250 horse. I blasted nitrous through it for a year and a half, with stock, cast rods. Seen 7000 rpm's a few times too. I think the stock rods are pretty strong but the problem is, if you stick a rod bearing, the other 7 cylinders will rip that rod in half and scatter your block all over the place[ a steel rod will just bend]. I feel that anymore, it's just not worth the risk to run stock rods. It costs almost as much to resize them with good bolts as it does to buy a set of forged. Yeah, so the blanks come from China, what doesn't come from over seas anymore. They are machined here in the US so they are still creating US jobs. Do you think that everything on a new Chevy or Pontiac is made in the US? I bet that most parts on todays American cars is made somewhere else. I sure see Hecho En Mexico on a lot of GM parts. Even Seen Chevy engine blocks that had Hecho En Mexico cast right into them. Personally I would get the Tomahawk rods and forget about it. They are a lot better and stronger than stock rods any day.

[gtofreek]

Originally Posted by Me Notyou

Ah. I would do this then spend the money later on and get the better rods when needed. It's too bad we don't have an option for an American rod around 500 bucks.

The reason there is so many China rods around now is because most people don't want to pay the price for the good American made stuff. Almost everyone we build engines for complains about the prices of parts and labor. They want to go racing but don't want to pay $1300 for a set of rods. Hell, a lot of them don't even want to pay for the machine work. Several even think it's our duty to pay for their machine work so THEY can go play. The fact of the matter is, times are tough. People are now spending so much for everyday living expenses that they can't afford high dollar parts when lesser cost parts will work. Thus creating a demand for China parts.

Just yesterday we went around and around with a customer on his engine. When he brought it in back in December, we told him it was going to run about $3000 just to put it back the way it was. It went on hold until he had money. Then he recently sold a car and got some money and came back ot talk to us about his engine. Well, now that he has more money, he says I want it faster. How much to port my heads, how much for a custom cam. Put SS roller rockers and 7/16 studs, and better pushrods, and this and that. Well, we get it done and figure out the bill and call him up and tell him it's like $4400. He about sh*ts his pants and says, "but you told me it would only be $3000. Guess he forgot about the ported heads, custom cam, SS roler rocker, studs, pushrods, etc., etc. So, what, are we supposed to pay for all his toys now? I just don't get it.

I guess the point I'm trying to make is this; we helped create the imported stuff we see now because the cost of American made stuff is getting higher and higher all the time. Is it fair that a person on an auto assembly line, screwing a bolt into a certain hole all day long, makes 2-3 times what a highly skilled race engine machinist/builder makes? No! You can thank the Unions for that! Is it fair that a cashier at the local supermarket makes twice as much as a nurse of 30 years experience? No! Is it fair that some high schooler that can't even figure change in their head gets $7.?? an hour to start at a fast food joint when their are guys out working in the hot sun digging holes for the same $7.?? an hour? I don't think so, but this is exactly why prices on American made items are so high. Because there is someone working on it that is being paid 2-4 times what they deserve. I can say this because I have busted my ass since I was 13 and still live payday to payday. No I'm not ashamed of it, but not proud of it either. As long as I have my family and friends, that is what really matters. I just don't get how an unskilled laborer can make so much more than a highly skilled engine machinist/builder in this country. Things are just way out of proportion here. I guess you can say I get tired of hearing people bitching about imported stuff when we as Americans have brought it on ourselves! Yes, I would love to buy only American made items but the fact of the matter is, I cannot afford them all the time, so sometimes I have to choose import.

Sorry about the thread hijack. Something just got me going!

[Me Notyou]

Originally Posted by WDCreech

I don't know what freight would be, but Ken Brewer has H-beam and I-beam, in either stock or 6.8" length, Tomawks for under $400. Why build it twice?

Don't wanna buy Chinese. Or any other foriegn made part if I can help it. Trust me. I DON'T want to spend money twice, but I'm also planning on a mild build now and a better one later.

[WDCreech]

I commend your view, but I'll wager that 60 or 70% of everything that you own, is imported, or was built with imported parts. Even the sheetrock, in your home, probably came from Canada. Your TV, radios, appliances, even some of the parts in your car, and be sure to check the clothes that you're wearing. I agree that we should buy American, but with the open trade agreement, we're getting the short end!

[Pontirag]

get the best rod. What ever you think you want now, you will not want to pull the engine latter and redo it alll a agin for the sake of another set of rods, Every builder and including those who "wrote the book" each decade for the last 30 years had stated that you must pend as much as you can affors on the short block.

Get the best and pay for it.

[GREATGTO]

sorry if I missed it ?, but block and what size engine are you building?

[form406]

try not to support asian imports, but put imported oil in the tank...go figure...you are swimming upstream my friend..nice principal but its expensive enough supporting pontiac in the first place compared to chebby...good chinese rods are finished and inspected by hard working red blooded americans...dream or drive. or toast a motor with old rods. or go mercedes...good luck...

[gtofreek]

Like WD Creech said, I applaud him for wanting to buy American! That's great! But, in reality, it just can't be done 100% of the time. Probably not even 50% of the time! If he doesn't want to by anything from another country then he is pretty much screwed in life. He won't be buying TV's, radios, DVD players, gas, oil for his car. He will never be able to by an American car because most of the parts are made in another country. Hell, the computer he is using, I'm sure was 90% made somewhere else. So how can he be so against the China rods that are ONLY forged in China, but machined here by Americans. Seems if noone would buy the China rods, then they would be putting a lot of Americans out of work too, not just Chinese people.

[Me Notyou]

Originally Posted by GREATGTO

sorry if I missed it ?, but block and what size engine are you building?

Its a 77 400. Its the one that's in the best shape right now and it's also the first motor I had for the car so I'm kind of attached to it.


I agree that things are messed up for those of us who want to buy American but I'm still going to try. I don't suffer from any illusions that more than half the stuff I have is probably chinese nor do I know think there are many options out there for most things, but I will do what I can to use those options when they exist.

[Me Notyou]

I look at it this way. If more people didn't have to work for wallmart they would be able to afford better things, or at least things that were made here more often. And I don't want to hear anybody say that people WANT to work at wallmart. I've NEVER heard anybody exclaim that they didnt want good benefits and were getting paid too much!! Also, have you noticed that even the chinese crap we buy is getting more expensive? Its almost as much as what we used to pay for stuff that was made here! What the #$*& is up with that?

[form406]

prices to transport that stuff is higher because of fuel costs...most people that work at walmart cant get a job elsewhere or wont have a job. also...the block you are building isnt the desirable one for high hp applications...

[GREATGTO]

Originally Posted by Me Notyou

Its a 77 400. Its the one that's in the best shape right now and it's also the first motor I had for the car so I'm kind of attached to it.


I agree that things are messed up for those of us who want to buy American but I'm still going to try. I don't suffer from any illusions that more than half the stuff I have is probably chinese nor do I know think there are many options out there for most things, but I will do what I can to use those options when they exist.

I was going to say you should maybe look into buying a set of used rods, sometimes you can find good deals on top of the line american made rods in your price range. I would also consider using aluminum rods like BME.I have a set of BME rods I bought back in 96 or so brand new for around 700 dollars, I'm sure they probably cost more now but you may be able to find some used.