[Father&Son73T/A]

Originally Posted by Judge273

I can't read the exact time...is that a 12.4 something? Scott Tiemann got that thing moving!

Yeah,a stock 71 TA pullin 12's on street tires?
That's nuts.

[Lloyd-TX]

Originally Posted by Judge273

I can't read the exact time...is that a 12.4 something? Scott Tiemann got that thing moving!

Yep - best pass (corrected) was a 12.40 @ 112.44.

Dan J., Mark W. and Scott T. certainly know what it takes to make a pure stocker HO run!

[70RAlll]

Originally Posted by Lloyd-TX

Yep - best pass (corrected) was a 12.40 @ 112.44.

Dan J., Mark W. and Scott T. certainly know what it takes to make a pure stocker HO run!

Please do not take this the wrong way guys...I ,myself , own a 71 HO.. But I question a STOCK 71 HO running low 12's?? I haven't finished my car yet, so i can not say for sure. But I was unaware that a 1971 TA ever ran low 12's in stock form. Am I missing something here??I thought these were low to mid 13's cars in stock form. I know I have test numbers somewhere here, just too lazy to find it. But with internal modifications, which would be undetectable, I am sure a 71 can run low 12's. But just don't get it with a stock car, even if you upped the compression to just under 10. I think you would have to stoke the engine to over 500 cubes and change to cam to get low 12's . Someone help me with the correct numbers without trashing me. I will state it again, I am not stating emphatically that it is impossible, just was unaware that they ran this fast in stock form..

[rustedgoat]

Its not stock is in how it rolled out of GM but "pure stock" is a racing class in which alot of the rules require you to use mostly original parts with correct castings #'s, no porting, no headers and I think no suspension mods. Kind of like racing correctly restored muscle cars. These guys know how to blueprint, build and fine tune these engines and get the power to the ground very efficently. Very, very cool to watch them race

[Jim Rotella]

Originally Posted by 70RAlll

Please do not take this the wrong way guys...I ,myself , own a 71 HO.. But I question a STOCK 71 HO running low 12's?? I haven't finished my car yet, so i can not say for sure. But I was unaware that a 1971 TA ever ran low 12's in stock form. Am I missing something here??I thought these were low to mid 13's cars in stock form. I know I have test numbers somewhere here, just too lazy to find it. But with internal modifications, which would be undetectable, I am sure a 71 can run low 12's. But just don't get it with a stock car, even if you upped the compression to just under 10. I think you would have to stoke the engine to over 500 cubes and change to cam to get low 12's . Someone help me with the correct numbers without trashing me. I will state it again, I am not stating emphatically that it is impossible, just was unaware that they ran this fast in stock form..

These Pure Stock cars are not bone showroom stock. They are allowed some minor modifications, but nothing really radical. If you look at the article closely, you'll see that Mark's bottom end was balanced, the compression ratio was increased to 9.63:1, the carb was rejetted, the distributor was recurved, and the exhaust was upgraded with a 2.5" mandrel bent Pypes system and an X pipe. These engines really respond to those legal PS tweaks. Just look at Paul Glasco's '70 Knafel Magnum 400 clone in that same article. With similiar modifications, it ran a corrected best time of 12.29 at 112.80. There are several Ram Air IV and SD455 cars running mid-to-high 12 seconds in these PS races. It's really amazing what they are doing with these cars.

[rustedgoat]

I'd like to know what kind of times these guys involved in pure stock could run if they had no rules but still look stock, run pump gas, and be street friendly. You know what alot of us restoring are cars are trying to do. Porting and streetable cams allowed but factory intake and exhaust a must. Something along the lines of a F.A.S.T. car but again streetable.

[70RAlll]

Originally Posted by Jim Rotella

These Pure Stock cars are not bone showroom stock. They are allowed some minor modifications, but nothing really radical. If you look at the article closely, you'll see that Mark's bottom end was balanced, the compression ratio was increased to 9.63:1, the carb was rejetted, the distributor was recurved, and the exhaust was upgraded with a 2.5" mandrel bent Pypes system and an X pipe. These engines really respond to those legal PS tweaks. Just look at Paul Glasco's '70 Knafel Magnum 400 clone in that same article. With similiar modifications, it ran a corrected best time of 12.29 at 112.80. There are several Ram Air IV and SD455 cars running mid-to-high 12 seconds in these PS races. It's really amazing what they are doing with these cars.

Guys, I am sure everyone will start screaming at me. But I am sceptical at heart. A 71 HO engine just doesn't run low 12's in stock form with re jetting and distributor re curving. These cars never were Quarter mile cars. Pontiac 455's torque/HP curves fall like a rock past 4500 RPM.They were always red light to red light monsters,still are!! But the stock valve train just doesn't suite high rpm full throttle service.Have any of you guys ever gone over 100mph in one of these cars with a 3.73 rear?? something like 4500 rom or more,brutal. I would be a believer if they did a random tear down ,or at least removal of valve covers after a race. It is so easy to hide internal modifications now a days. And like I said, these engines weren't designed to run the high RPM"s that a 12.40 QM would indicate.Ask any engine builder,like the guys at Butler, if they think a stock(which essentially that what this engine is-minus a dist. and carb tune) 71 455 could run a TA into the low 12's.They own their local track and I know without a doubt their answer is yes with internal modifications to the heads and valve train, but no using stock heads with stock ,non adjustable valve train.And guys ..think about this. The technology of rejetting a Quadrajet and re curving a distributor have been around since these cars were new. I don't even thinkthe 70 hemi 'cuda's ran low 12's in near stock form.They were the absolute King of the QM in their day. If TA's in stock form could do this, we would have seen articles proclaiming these cars the new king of the track.
And guys, I am sure I will get a bunch of trash talk back at me for suggesting this. But I just don't get it. I am not super expert engine builder, but I do build all of my own engines here at my shop ,by myself. SO I know a bit about the chacteristics of these engines. Granted I have NEVER ran a QM in one of these, so I could be dead wrong here. Just doesn't make sense to me that simple jetting and re curving could slice almost a full second off generally accepted stock times. Heck the Motion Camaros were only guaranteed to run 13's...we are supposed to believe that near stock TA's are running 12.40's without internal modifications?? I am still skptical.. Please someone help me see what I am missing. I am not too much of a smarta$$ that I can not accept when I am wrong.To the contrary...I would love for someone to show me where i am wrong.

[njsteve]

Not nickpicking here but the Motion Camaros were gauranteed to run an 11 second quarter mile with one of their drivers behind the wheel or you got your money back, NOT 13 seconds.

[70RAlll]

Originally Posted by njsteve

Not nickpicking here but the Motion Camaros were gauranteed to run an 11 second quarter mile with one of their drivers behind the wheel or you got your money back, NOT 13 seconds.

shows how much I know about Camaros. I had asked a guy who restores Yenkos, he told me he thought it was 13 seconds. I sort of took his word, 2 time muscle Car of teh year recieptient.. anyway, I could have heard it wrong.. but still, someone help me understand how our cars run 12.XX sec. QM's in near stock form.. ??

[keith k]

Originally Posted by 70RAlll

shows how much I know about Camaros. I had asked a guy who restores Yenkos, he told me he thought it was 13 seconds. I sort of took his word, 2 time muscle Car of teh year recieptient.. anyway, I could have heard it wrong.. but still, someone help me understand how our cars run 12.XX sec. QM's in near stock form.. ??

Bill, the latest issues of HPP have fairly detailed stories on how they're doing it. I do believe it's possible for these cars to run these times with the attention to detail, expertise, and tricks that have been lavished on them.

I think you are correct in how these cars ran when they were TRULY new/original/stock/factory. The Pure Stock series does allow some deviations from stock, that in conjunction with some of the other set up allowances, and drivers who are pretty darn good, explain the times they get.

I hope to make it out to their event this year to see the cars in the flesh.

[74 SD455 Formula]

Also if you read the whole article you'll see that they have special grind cam shaft's.The lift and duration are the same,but the difference is in the lobe speration.What Dan Jensen does with his motor's make's sence if you talk to any knowledgeable Pontiac engine builder.

[threefidee]

The first article of this series (last month's issue) states "remember not to get caught up in the semantics of the words Pure Stock." They used the word "Pure" when this all got started to weed out modified cars and that most of the cars that participate at the event are not the literal definition of "pure stock". They started this informally back in the early '90's with a small group of people. From what Mark tells me is that many of these people ran their cars in Stock NHRA and the only things they had to do was put the right tires back on them and put the manifolds back on (I am probably leaving something out here) and they had some fun. Since these guys for the most part were using NHRA specs at the very beginning they adopted the the NHRA blueprint specs to use for building engines for everyone. It was never intended to be a "Virgin Stock Class" so one has to remember not to take the word "Pure" literally as I am glad they do try to explain this in the article. Whether you agree or not this is the way they do it. I remember when I was first introduced to the Pure Stock Muscle Drag Racing and saw my first event I remember telling my dad that this can not be right as these cars are going faster than what I had always read in magazine articles. Then it was explained to me about what I have mentioned above and made sense. Keep in mind that even though the NHRA can give you more compression to use, ect... the main reason these cars are faster are these. The reproduction tires are much better than they were back then and with that combined with the track being "glued" they hook like drag slicks. The other main reason is they are allowed to use a much better exhaust system than what left the factory. 2 1/2 inch mandrel bent systems with "X" pipes really wake many of these cars up. Ask Mark how much his Judge improved by just switching exhausts from the factory show to the 2 1/2 inch system. It will amaze you.

Thanks for listening,

Jody

[Jim Rotella]

There's definetly more to it than recurving and rejetting. To get these times, these engines are balanced and blueprinted, something that is rarely done at the factory. They are allowed a boost in compression and these builders are also aided by the use of a dyno to supertune their engines. As Jody has posted earlier, the 2 1/2" mandrel bent exhaust system with an X pipe flows much better than the old 2 1/4' factory bent system. Just take a look at a '71-'72 Trans Am with stock 455 HO 2 1/4" head pipes as they come out of the exhaust manifolds. The first 90 degree bend is crushed down to probably 1 7/8", and as you follow the system back, there are similar bends going into the single crossflow muffler. This has always been a horsepower-robbing system.

I'm sure everyone has their own little tricks, but with such a large number of cars turning 12's, are we to assume that everyone is cheating? We are seeing RA II's, RA IV's, 455 HO's, and SD 455's getting into the mid-12's, not to mention all the others makes that are turning these times. I say give these guys credit for a job well done.

[70RAlll]

I wish to thank everyone for not "jumping" all over me on my comments. Thanks for the comments on Pure STock vs Virgin Stock. I have this issue around here, just can not find it.I guess I see the exhaust side. Still think the heads have been massaged a bit along with the valve train. Anyway, guess I see it now, still am skeptical ..Thats just me.. Comp Cams is here in my town, so it is easy to run around the corner and talk to them. I had them make a "custom" 068 hydraullic roller for me.Why they don't sell it commercially I don't know. It really awoke my stroked 400 in my '70 .. Probably will use it in my 71 when I get to the engine. This are the type of changes that I see bringing our cars into the low 12's.. But then again, guess I had the Pure Stock moniker stuck in my mind. These sound more like Almost Stock Compititions,not Pure.But then again, whats in a name??

[threefidee]

Almost a full second gain on Mark's RA 4 Judge going to the better exhausts. That plus much better bias ply tires and a Glued track makes for some incredible times from these cars.

Jody

[threefidee]

Should have mentioned this earlier but the next several issues if HPP contains cars that run at the Pure Stock Drags for their special series of Pavement Pounders. July was the first issue and you will be able to see different cars for the next 6 months. Also, Mark Weymouth has written special articles in a section called "Pure Stock Prep School". It should help some of us understand better what Pure Stock Racing is, how it originated, rules and how to get the most out of stock setups. July was about engines, what you can do, ect..., August is part 2 and about Drivetrain and Suspension with more issues to come.

It is great reading and should answer some of your questions plus you can see some great cars running some great times. I posted my best time at this shootout last year and will be in the next issue along with my old Judge

Jody

[Judge273]

Great discussion guys!! Believe me it is great for our hobby to have these events put on by guys who really do care about the cars and about the heritage of these rare engines as well. Not many of these cars are running their "virgin" engines too.

When they find a RA IV or HO car that is a low mileage survivor they will leave those cars that way to preserve the "factory" stock cars as well. I have heard they will leave the heads as untouched as possible to preserve those rare casting.

[Mark Weymouth]

70 RA III I will try and not make this to long of a discussion as most of what has been stated is correct so forgive me for any reiteration of facts above.

First and foremost I love RA III's hence your moniker brings a smile and we are just about ready to dyno tune one for a Goat to race in the PS races. You would be amazed by the potential they have and mid 12's is not just a goal but I will make sure a reality! Also the pictures in HPP of a torn down motor are of this motor. Look closely at those heads and you will see how virgin they are.

To start Jody is correct if you review the last two issues of HPP Dan and I tried to carefully and fully explain the terms and guide lines into building 12 and 13 second Pontiacs. Not to mention the several cars that will show up this year that are reaching for the elusive 11's.

We did our best to leave no stone unturned in heading people in the direction of achieving these times. Of course I MAYBE left the last 5% of knowledge out that I had to earn at the track and dyno. The competitive spirit and all keeps me from giving up that very last 0.1 of a second...

Before we start I would also like to state that we have friends up here with Butler and Taylor motors (modified). Amazing pieces and I have dyno tuned a Butler FAST motor. The Butler FAST motor struggled to make 500 hp and did not hit 600 tq. We took their ported intake off for a stocker and kept tuning and with more stock parts moved the motor up to 550+ hp and 630+ tq. Unfortunately most people/companies do not understand these motors in particular stock motors well. This is understandable as most people are not as nuts as we PS racers are. And often it is easier to take the aftermarket route then fight the stock route. Of course the rewards of a well thought out carefully done stock program can be seen by all these fast time slips.

A good example is a roller stroker 400 (461 CID now) motor in my brother '79 400 4 spd T/A now matched to a 3.42 gear. We dyno'd it this winter after several years of him driving it. The impetus to dyno it was when both my PS HO T/A and 440+6 bird kicked its arse at Woodward. In the end his roller cam/rockers, stroker crank, ported heads and intake with 800 cfm quadra jet ran great but did gain a bunch on the dyno. The end result was it made a bit less tq then the HO and a bit more hp with an extra 300 rpm of rev. Not very impressive for all the effort/expense. The irony is that when he had it stock with a functional hood scoop, rejetted carb, recurved timing, 1.65 rockers and '73 down pipes replacing the stock down pipes and cat the car went almost as fast on the 3.23's. It would run 13's @ 104 mph back the 1980's.

First let me INFATICALLY STATE that there is ZERO AND I ME ZERO head mods allowed on these cars. I am also a tech at the races and I have several times torn my motors down to prove such. Each time you qualify for the Quick 8 in the Factory Stock class at FAST races you must get P&G'd, take off valve covers etc.

My Judge has also gone through that process at PS races and any car Scott/Dan/Bob or I believe is cheating gets pulled at the PS races for extended tech. One L88 racer went so far as to tear his motor down in front of everyone and hand over his cam shaft to Scott to keep and check after being accused of cheating while his wife set the fastest ET ever that weekend. The fastest racers for the most part pride themselves on being way beyond honest and are all willing to tear things apart to prove it. COPO Pete even has gone so far as to by all NOS ZL1 parts and assemble them untouched, and he ran in the 11's occasionally on that combo.

Jody also commented on the effectiveness of new parts. The repop bias ply's return 60' times that slicks did back in the 1960's. Glued tracks are amazing as you can do 6000 rpm powershifts in my Judge and it will hold. By the way the Judge has the shocks and springs it left the factory with!!! We were given the opportunity to tune and take a little mild 350 HO bird Tom Miller owned to the HPP shoot out and it was driven by Rich Rinke who had never even raced a PS car before. We knocked several tenths out of the cars best ever time and Rich was lifting the left front tire on luanch. Glue and tires, simply amazing.

Now onto the exhaust. The Judge which has this stuff stated in the HPP articles was struggling to hit low 14's with a correct factory exhaust on a correct factory motor. With just an exhuast change it ultimately worked its way down into the low low 13's. A good exhuast on these cars alone can be a tremendous amount.

As too the 455 HO. There are no tricks just good thoughtful effort. First you are right about stock HO valve trains to a degree. Pontiac used lifters that would pump up early to protect against over reving. A set of RA IV lifters back in the day was the trick and fixed them up just fine. For us we use Crane lifters. They have let us turn as high as 6800 on the dyno with a RA IV. The HO's do not drop like a rock at 4500 when correctly setup. Scott was shifting mine at 5200 and it holds power until 5500 just fine. We run 3.73 gears and an M22. A bit long for great short times but still hanging in there at 111+ mph at the traps. Scott was still hitting 1.90 short times with this combo. Also of utmost importance for max ET's is the gear. The HO would run very low 13's with the 3.42 in the butt but now is going 12.6's with a 3.73. The improvement of a perfectly matched gear is amazing.

It really boils down to simplicity. Make sure you do not miss any items. Balance the motor, we do to less then one gram per all 8 rod/piston sets. You do not have to touch the heads, do not port, do not gasket match, run good valve springs that will take the rpm but not have excessive seat and open pressures, run high quality SS valves such as Manley, have your stock valve seat angles retained but ground to perfection. A lot of power is saved in that step alone. Do not run more oil pressure than needed. Use a general guide line of 10 lbs for every 1000 rpm. We have gained in Pontiacs/Mopars...as much as 6-7 hp on just getting the oil pump at the correct PSI from being to high like a high flow unit is. Do not skimp on the exhuast system. Pypes makes a good ready to bolt in system that will allow 12's all day long. Lastly take time getting the chassis setup perfectly. We are not allowed drag shocks or spring changes but my 455 HO will not spin on the street. I can luanch at 2000 rpm on the street and power shift with only small barks off the tires. I outlined how to do this in the article. The RA IV's are another item all together. My RA IV cars are useless on the street. They are violent and make a mess of the tires but are crowd pleasers. The HO's meter out power so nicely they could hold onto almost anything.

We have invited many people to our dyno sessions and our engine builds. We want everyone to see how stock motors can amaze. We are building a HO, SD and RA III currently on the Pontiac end and all will race and hopefully surprise a few more people who have not seen our form of racing.

Do not discount the dyno time, tuning and driving abilities to help also. We have several different NHRA/IHRA class winners or National Champions competeing with us. A good driver can knock off a lot of time. I took an AMX I had only driven to the staging lanes as experience this fall and set the fastest time it has ever gone on the first pass. I did not even get a good run and purposely did not power shift. That car has had several drivers try and make it go and they were becoming disheartened. We showed that they just had not found the potential yet. The car is capable of now turning 0.3 faster then it had gone on just driving alone. My ET was much quicker but my MPH was barely higher then the past. You have to feel these cars and do what they want not what you want.

On the dyno even with all our experience and pre-setup we still find another 20-30 hp every time. Every motor/carb has its own desires. That much hp gain equates to a .25 second improvement at the track. With a bit of further tuning each outing at the track you keep it perfect. We dyno with the air cleaner, water pump, fuel pump, alternator (unplugged) and exhaust systems on. This gives us real world as bolted into the car results and it shows. Take your time and if you need help let us know. We have no problem sharing.

Back to the RA III wait till you see this thing dyno. We believe no one has made a serious effort with a RA III and we are trying to fix that. My brothers RA III '69 T/A was a national show resto with Tieman and Dan and was never meant to race. That car has a/c, auto, 3.23 gears, ps, pdb...it shocked everyone with its ET's. Which was enough motivation to start a project for the PS races.

I have certified several cars now to show how they meet all the rules and each car became a record holder and none were pushed anywhere near the NHRA compression limits. I hope this truly helps 70 RA III. If not PM me. I will do whatever I can to help you build your motor. Keep them stock and go out and shock all the header and slick guys. Nothing is more fun then killing a gutted noise maker on slicks at the local track. They just stand there in disbelief.

Mark

[70RAlll]

Originally Posted by Mark Weymouth

70 RA III I will try and not make this to long of a discussion as most of what has been stated is correct so forgive me for any reiteration of facts above.

First and foremost I love RA III's hence your moniker brings a smile and we are just about ready to dyno tune one for a Goat to race in the PS races. You would be amazed by the potential they have and mid 12's is not just a goal but I will make sure a reality! Also the pictures in HPP of a torn down motor are of this motor. Look closely at those heads and you will see how virgin they are.

To start Jody is correct if you review the last two issues of HPP Dan and I tried to carefully and fully explain the terms and guide lines into building 12 and 13 second Pontiacs. Not to mention the several cars that will show up this year that are reaching for the elusive 11's.

We did our best to leave no stone unturned in heading people in the direction of achieving these times. Of course I MAYBE left the last 5% of knowledge out that I had to earn at the track and dyno. The competitive spirit and all keeps me from giving up that very last 0.1 of a second...

Before we start I would also like to state that we have friends up here with Butler and Taylor motors (modified). Amazing pieces and I have dyno tuned a Butler FAST motor. The Butler FAST motor struggled to make 500 hp and did not hit 600 tq. We took their ported intake off for a stocker and kept tuning and with more stock parts moved the motor up to 550+ hp and 630+ tq. Unfortunately most people/companies do not understand these motors in particular stock motors well. This is understandable as most people are not as nuts as we PS racers are. And often it is easier to take the aftermarket route then fight the stock route. Of course the rewards of a well thought out carefully done stock program can be seen by all these fast time slips.

A good example is a roller stroker 400 (461 CID now) motor in my brother '79 400 4 spd T/A now matched to a 3.42 gear. We dyno'd it this winter after several years of him driving it. The impetus to dyno it was when both my PS HO T/A and 440+6 bird kicked its arse at Woodward. In the end his roller cam/rockers, stroker crank, ported heads and intake with 800 cfm quadra jet ran great but did gain a bunch on the dyno. The end result was it made a bit less tq then the HO and a bit more hp with an extra 300 rpm of rev. Not very impressive for all the effort/expense. The irony is that when he had it stock with a functional hood scoop, rejetted carb, recurved timing, 1.65 rockers and '73 down pipes replacing the stock down pipes and cat the car went almost as fast on the 3.23's. It would run 13's @ 104 mph back the 1980's.

First let me INFATICALLY STATE that there is ZERO AND I ME ZERO head mods allowed on these cars. I am also a tech at the races and I have several times torn my motors down to prove such. Each time you qualify for the Quick 8 in the Factory Stock class at FAST races you must get P&G'd, take off valve covers etc.

My Judge has also gone through that process at PS races and any car Scott/Dan/Bob or I believe is cheating gets pulled at the PS races for extended tech. One L88 racer went so far as to tear his motor down in front of everyone and hand over his cam shaft to Scott to keep and check after being accused of cheating while his wife set the fastest ET ever that weekend. The fastest racers for the most part pride themselves on being way beyond honest and are all willing to tear things apart to prove it. COPO Pete even has gone so far as to by all NOS ZL1 parts and assemble them untouched, and he ran in the 11's occasionally on that combo.

Jody also commented on the effectiveness of new parts. The repop bias ply's return 60' times that slicks did back in the 1960's. Glued tracks are amazing as you can do 6000 rpm powershifts in my Judge and it will hold. By the way the Judge has the shocks and springs it left the factory with!!! We were given the opportunity to tune and take a little mild 350 HO bird Tom Miller owned to the HPP shoot out and it was driven by Rich Rinke who had never even raced a PS car before. We knocked several tenths out of the cars best ever time and Rich was lifting the left front tire on luanch. Glue and tires, simply amazing.

Now onto the exhaust. The Judge which has this stuff stated in the HPP articles was struggling to hit low 14's with a correct factory exhaust on a correct factory motor. With just an exhuast change it ultimately worked its way down into the low low 13's. A good exhuast on these cars alone can be a tremendous amount.

As too the 455 HO. There are no tricks just good thoughtful effort. First you are right about stock HO valve trains to a degree. Pontiac used lifters that would pump up early to protect against over reving. A set of RA IV lifters back in the day was the trick and fixed them up just fine. For us we use Crane lifters. They have let us turn as high as 6800 on the dyno with a RA IV. The HO's do not drop like a rock at 4500 when correctly setup. Scott was shifting mine at 5200 and it holds power until 5500 just fine. We run 3.73 gears and an M22. A bit long for great short times but still hanging in there at 111+ mph at the traps. Scott was still hitting 1.90 short times with this combo. Also of utmost importance for max ET's is the gear. The HO would run very low 13's with the 3.42 in the butt but now is going 12.6's with a 3.73. The improvement of a perfectly matched gear is amazing.

It really boils down to simplicity. Make sure you do not miss any items. Balance the motor, we do to less then one gram per all 8 rod/piston sets. You do not have to touch the heads, do not port, do not gasket match, run good valve springs that will take the rpm but not have excessive seat and open pressures, run high quality SS valves such as Manley, have your stock valve seat angles retained but ground to perfection. A lot of power is saved in that step alone. Do not run more oil pressure than needed. Use a general guide line of 10 lbs for every 1000 rpm. We have gained in Pontiacs/Mopars...as much as 6-7 hp on just getting the oil pump at the correct PSI from being to high like a high flow unit is. Do not skimp on the exhuast system. Pypes makes a good ready to bolt in system that will allow 12's all day long. Lastly take time getting the chassis setup perfectly. We are not allowed drag shocks or spring changes but my 455 HO will not spin on the street. I can luanch at 2000 rpm on the street and power shift with only small barks off the tires. I outlined how to do this in the article. The RA IV's are another item all together. My RA IV cars are useless on the street. They are violent and make a mess of the tires but are crowd pleasers. The HO's meter out power so nicely they could hold onto almost anything.

We have invited many people to our dyno sessions and our engine builds. We want everyone to see how stock motors can amaze. We are building a HO, SD and RA III currently on the Pontiac end and all will race and hopefully surprise a few more people who have not seen our form of racing.

Do not discount the dyno time, tuning and driving abilities to help also. We have several different NHRA/IHRA class winners or National Champions competeing with us. A good driver can knock off a lot of time. I took an AMX I had only driven to the staging lanes as experience this fall and set the fastest time it has ever gone on the first pass. I did not even get a good run and purposely did not power shift. That car has had several drivers try and make it go and they were becoming disheartened. We showed that they just had not found the potential yet. The car is capable of now turning 0.3 faster then it had gone on just driving alone. My ET was much quicker but my MPH was barely higher then the past. You have to feel these cars and do what they want not what you want.

On the dyno even with all our experience and pre-setup we still find another 20-30 hp every time. Every motor/carb has its own desires. That much hp gain equates to a .25 second improvement at the track. With a bit of further tuning each outing at the track you keep it perfect. We dyno with the air cleaner, water pump, fuel pump, alternator (unplugged) and exhaust systems on. This gives us real world as bolted into the car results and it shows. Take your time and if you need help let us know. We have no problem sharing.

Back to the RA III wait till you see this thing dyno. We believe no one has made a serious effort with a RA III and we are trying to fix that. My brothers RA III '69 T/A was a national show resto with Tieman and Dan and was never meant to race. That car has a/c, auto, 3.23 gears, ps, pdb...it shocked everyone with its ET's. Which was enough motivation to start a project for the PS races.

I have certified several cars now to show how they meet all the rules and each car became a record holder and none were pushed anywhere near the NHRA compression limits. I hope this truly helps 70 RA III. If not PM me. I will do whatever I can to help you build your motor. Keep them stock and go out and shock all the header and slick guys. Nothing is more fun then killing a gutted noise maker on slicks at the local track. They just stand there in disbelief.

Mark

Mark-
I can not thank you enough for the time it took to type this response.We all are busy people and I am sure it took 15-20 minutes,if not longer, of your time... thanks. This is exactly what I was looking for when I initially posted on this thread. So I thank you.
Yes, I have found the high oil pump deal. So many, including me, are mesmerized by the big 80 psi high flow pumps, when the standard flow actually works better. Found that out the hard way. I will be interested in reading the results of your RAlll build up. I have a 70 RAlll plus a 71 HO. Both are original and stock. Well the 70 isn't completely stock. Had Comp Cams make me a Hyd.Roller copy of the 068 cam and use roller tip rockers. But mostly stock.
But back to getting in the 12's.If I read your post correctly. Most of this leap is from the modern tires/sticky track and the improved aftermarket exhaust systems you guys are running.right?/ With fine tuning from properly set up suspension and carb/timing curve adjustment and proper engine machining work adding the balance. I'm a believer. Great work you guys are doing.
and once again, no harm meant by my questioning..just wanted to better understand what was going on here. Thanks again for the post................

[Lloyd-TX]

Mark, a heartfelt thanks for sharing so much of your hard-earned Pontiac knowledge with us.

What y'all can do with PURE stock heads, intake and exhaust manifolds is simply amazing.
Countless hundreds - if not thousands - of dyno hours and track testing.

Money continues to be an issue for me, but if I can ever get my head above water, I'm going to hire y'all to build me a '72 HO engine.

Thanks again!