[67 lamans]

Can anyone tell me if this VIN# 237375P201671 is a GTO or not without going thru PHS...thanks

[tripower]

Not from the VIN exactly, but since it is a Pontiac MI built car, look for a "5N" near the bottom of the firewall data plate. If it's there, it's a GTO, if not, 99% chance it is not a GTO.

[67 lamans]

Your good. I'll check it out..The owner did say at one time it had a 389 tri-power and possibly a 4spd. Now it is a 400 with auto, He is not the original owner..

[engineer]

only way for sure is PHS. Everything else is just hoping.

[RA1John]

Originally Posted by engineer

only way for sure is PHS. Everything else is just hoping.

Not so.
There ARE ways
"5N" is a VERY good way (if PON or KAN).
Filled in emblem holes. Engine codes. Production Broadcast Sheet.
I always check the obvious and then not so obvious. If all checks out, then I'll do PHS
(as a last resort). If I see filled in emblem holes or no "5N", I don't bother w/PHS.
Also have had pretty good luck finding the Broadcast Sheet in the car.. multiple places for it to be... under seats, carpet, sound deadner, above gas tank, behind dash, in cowl.

[tripower]

Originally Posted by engineer

only way for sure is PHS. Everything else is just hoping.

I don't know of any 65 "5N" coded A-bodies (PON of KAN) that are not factory GTO's.......

[RA6T7GTO]

i have had a few 65 gtos in the past and i looked for the 5n on the plate,there was not but i had phs for both and they were real gto. so to me the 5n theory is not the best way,send for phs

[tripower]

Originally Posted by RA6T7GTO

i have had a few 65 gtos in the past and i looked for the 5n on the plate,there was not but i had phs for both and they were real gto. so to me the 5n theory is not the best way,send for phs

Where they built in KC or PON? My guess is they were Baltimore or Fremont cars. The 5N theory as you call it, does not apply to B or Z VIN cars.

The post above is in reference to a car built at the Pontiac Michigan plant, again, if it had a 5N on the data plate, it is a GTO pretty much guaranteed. If it does not, good chance it is not.

[67 lamans]

I ordered the PHS for this car today, they say if you fax it and send $15.00 more you will get results ASAP faxed back to you. I want to know what is up with this car befor I buy it this weekend. The car does appear to have factory air with vents in the car and a compresser out front..not sure if this was a dealer installed item??

[engineer]

if you have a way to check for a sure thing, why gamble on something for the little investment cost for PHS docs. that could pay off big time in the future? Better safe than sorry.

[Tom Vaught]

Quote:

"i have had a few 65 gtos in the past and i looked for the 5n on the plate,there was not but i had phs for both and they were real gto. so to me the 5n theory is not the best way,send for phs"

This is a True Statement.

Quote:

"Where they built in KC or PON? My guess is they were Baltimore or Fremont cars. The 5N theory as you call it, does not apply to B or Z VIN cars.

The post above is in reference to a car built at the Pontiac Michigan plant, again, if it had a 5N on the data plate, it is a GTO pretty much guaranteed. If it does not, good chance it is not."

Part of the confusion here is that the people from a famous Pontiac/other Parts Supply House published a GENERIC statement many years ago that ALL GTOS had to have the 5N to be a TRUE GTO. As was mentioned above, they only had it half right (Pontiac & Kansas City vs Baltimore & Fremont). This Half/A**ed Research has lead to a lot of other assumed logic. The PHS paperwork does eliminate a lot of this confusion.

Quote:

"If I see filled in emblem holes or no "5N", I don't bother w/PHS."

Again, as a GENERIC philosophy to buying a GTO and considering RAJohn's valuable time, his method looks pretty good, but what about a car that was repaired at one time or a guy who found some NOS LeMans sheetmetal vs rusted metal and had it put on the front or rear of his car? GTOs DID get into accidents over the years vs being trailered all over the country in present times.

I was in the center lane getting ready to make a turn when an idiot in a Corvette clipped the rear of my GTO.
Does that mean the car is not a GTO any more because it has "filled hole" LeMans sheetmetal on the car? I don't think so. By the way, I asked that the welds WERE NOT ground down, as I could explain why the mint quarters were on the car.

If you can afford it (the price keeps going up) get the PHS documentation. You might save a lot of money if you want a "real" GTO. Otherwise, people who are not so concerned about "flipping" a car, might like to have a really nice LeMans that looks like a GTO for a lot less money.

JMO

Tom V.

ps PHS is not perfect as Pontiac EMPLOYEES were not perfect either. There are at least three legit non 5N cars from Pontiac/KC in existence to my knowledge.

[GT182]

Originally Posted by Tom Vaught

ps PHS is not perfect as Pontiac EMPLOYEES were not perfect either. There are at least three legit non 5N cars from Pontiac/KC in existence to my knowledge.

True and it was the same for all the other models from GM. Every plant had a few clowns that would on occasion throw in the proverbial "monkey wrench" on a car. Whether it was a bad day at work or at home didn't matter. They'd have their fun which actually made a car rare because of their actions.

We hauled out of St. Therese PQ's GM plant and saw all kinds of weird things. Same went for the backhauls out of the other Northeast GM plants and railyards. And I heard too it happened at Ford and Chrysler. Nothing was sacred. LOL

[67 lamans]

O.K., the verdict is in. PHS had a response to my fax within 5 minutes($65.00 well spent). This car is NOT a GTO, its a Lamans 326 2Bbl car with very little options...It did not show up on PHS as being a a/c car although the factory interior a/c vents and compressor are there..The car did have a frame off done and now has a 400 with 700r4 trans, great black paint and underside is like new. a/c needs belt but compressor was rebuilt. I'm not sure if a GTO clone is worth the $25,000 he is asking???

[tripower]

Well that is kind of a red flag. Did the seller claim this car was a GTO? Usually by now, people who have a real factory GTO will invest the measly $35 in PHS to validate their car.

[67 lamans]

The person he bought it from a while back said it was a GTO. Not sure why he did not do the PHS?? He seems not to care about it, just wanted a nice pontiac.. I want a real one, so I ran the PHS for him.. PHS is now $50.00 plus $15.00 if you want it faxed ASAP.

[tripower]

Nice of you to do that. PHS has saved me some big money as well!

[Pecosbill]

25 grand for a clone seems like the high end of the range to me. In other words, it would have to be a pretty special and well restored clone to bring that kind of dough. Something to beware of also is to check the rivets on the VIN plate to make sure they haven't been tampered with. I learned this the hard way when I bought a car and didn't notice that the VIN plate had just been glued in place. Turns out the car had been stolen years prior and the thief had pulled a VIN switch to enable him to sell the car.

[wytnyt]

you must decide if its worth the price
my opinion is you can get a real gto for that price

[67 lamans]

I'm not going to buy the clone, rather spend more if I have to for a real one...