[MescaBug]

I was working on my 69 Bird yesterday, trying to fix a bad idle (when it starts). It has a 1974 400 with auto trans.

I stopped the car, went inside for a beer and now, it won't start anymore! No clicking, no nothing, it just doesn't wake up. Lights turns on, but nothing happens. Is it possible that the starter went dead just like that? The engine don't start everytime, but at least, it turned!

Any input on this would be greatly appreciated before I work on it again. I know I will have to recheck everything; can be a bad wire, bad connection point, can be a lot of things. Maybe somebody here had a similar problem, and hopefully, it's nothing serious.

While browsing the forums, I read that putting it on neutral, and then back on Park might fix the problem. I'm not home, so I won't be able to test it before the weekend. Any clue on this?

Thanks

[steve]

methodically check all your electrical connections. physically feel to see they are tight and everything is gounded well. do you have an MSD box or anything like that ?

[73LeMans]

Dont overlook the neutral safety switch either. If the car isnt fully engaged in P or N, it wont crank at all. Jigger the shifter, or the collar on the column, to make sure its in park and try it again.

[MescaBug]

No. It's the stock HEI ignition. I did the basic electrical test; voltage from the battery through the system, and at the starter. It all checks fine, I mean, it has power. Can be somewhere else though..

Thanks for letting me know about the neutral safety switch. That would confirm the information I was talking about. The shifter is kinda loose a litlle bit, so that might be it.

[steve]

Originally Posted by MescaBug

No. It's the stock HEI ignition. I did the basic electrical test; voltage from the battery through the system, and at the starter. It all checks fine, I mean, it has power. Can be somewhere else though..

i had my msd box crap out and it did the same thing. i also had a loose wire on my ignition one time that did that.....FWIW

[440GP69]

smack the Sollenoid with a hammer, don't be suprised if it starts up after that, Don't hit to hard just a whack

[sleepy]

Neutral safety switch or the small wire on the starter solenoid.

[95ramairformula]

S terminal on the starter. Check to see if its loose or broken. This happened to me.

[MescaBug]

Ok. Did some more tests today. Without touching anything, I turned the key. Engine turned and started. Carb is not tuned, so it stopped. Got back in the car, turned the key, nothing!! Lights on and all, but engine wouldn't turn.

I waited an hour, got back in the car, turned the key and it turned! Didn't start though.. Gave it another try, nothing!!

Anybody knows what the hell is going on? It's definitely not an electrical problem. It wouldn't start at all. I always have to wait some time before it turns again after a failed attempt.

[95ramairformula]

Mine did the same thing... The S terminal post was cracked where it goes into the solenoid housing. I could not tell until I got up in there and looked, it was cracked just enough where it would make contact at random. Once I pulled the starter and solenoid it was obvious. Replaced and it worked fine. It might not be your problem but I would check it.

["QUICK-SILVER"]

Originally Posted by MescaBug

Ok. Did some more tests today. Without touching anything, I turned the key. Engine turned and started. Carb is not tuned, so it stopped. Got back in the car, turned the key, nothing!! Lights on and all, but engine wouldn't turn.

I waited an hour, got back in the car, turned the key and it turned! Didn't start though.. Gave it another try, nothing!!

Anybody knows what the hell is going on? It's definitely not an electrical problem. It wouldn't start at all. I always have to wait some time before it turns again after a failed attempt.

If it's not the starter solenoid, it's got to be a bad switch or adjustment of (ignition or neutral safety) or a bad/loose/corroded terminal/connection somewhere inbetween.

Try turning the key slowly to see if it doesn't make contact somewhere other than all the way.

May need to check power supply comming into the switch.
Test light and some time and you'll find the problem.
Check for power at the (S) terminal on the solenoid with switch in crank position, that will tell you which direction to start looking.
Loose/corroded terminals can arc and make contact with a little extra voltage, shake or temperature change.
Bulkhead connector is another good place to look for bad connections.

If it's not the solenoid, you may want to use a remote starter button, till you get it figured out.

[MescaBug]

Since it has HEI ignition, it should have a wire from the starter solenoid to the ignition coil on the distributor right?

It's kinda confusing when you have a 69 car with a different generation engine... I can't refer to my 69 service manual since for electrical stuff, it doesn't have the same ignition system. I think I'll just remove the entire engine, and start from scratch. There is no better way to know exactly what's under the hood.

The engine components (not internals) have been mixed up together using original and later-era parts. Wires are not using their original paths. It's driving me crazy. Point-to-point wire testing is a pain when wires are running everywhere.

[carguy1959]

You can always run a wire to the starter and one to the battery, put a push/momentary switch in between. I had to do this to a 68 Lemans I had. I mounted it under the dash. When the ignition acted up, I used the switch to start it......

[carguy1959]

If you use a switch, make sure you use 10 ga wire...

[4dblnkldude]

Just get to the basics. Just like everyone else says. You probably had a few people work on it before you wiring for this and that, Buy a new engine harness and put in a good points dist since your car came with that instead of trying to fix previous owners problems. I cant stand a bowl of spaghetti under a hood. Then upgrade from there, new hei or msd or whatever. Thats a lot easier that removing the engine.I think a new harness is likke 200 bucks, if you don't have an old points dist laying around [like most of us do] use your resouces and find one, they are very easy to rebuild. Good luck I've been through stupid crap like this before and it bugs the hell out of you, until you figure it out. You'll say to yourself"jeez it was that simple". But your lucky to have this forum and so am I.

["QUICK-SILVER"]

Originally Posted by MescaBug

Since it has HEI ignition, it should have a wire from the starter solenoid to the ignition coil on the distributor right?

Point distributors had a wire running from the (R) terminal on the starter solenoid up to the (+) side of the coil. HEI did not use this wire but having it doesn't hurt anything, so it doesn't really matter if it's there or not.

Having a different engine and modern electrical components is ok also. The original starter wire would have remained the same. So your original manual should be fine for checking out the starting system.

[Jim Scites]

Next time it doesn't start. Have someone hold the key in the crank position and hit the bottom of the starter with a hammer.. The end bushings wear out and the armature sits down on the field windings. If you hit the starter with a hammer it will make the armature jump up and start spinning. Worth a try. I have temporarily fixed the problem by taking the 2 long bolts out of the starter and turning the place over so the top if now on the bottom. But I would recommend replacing or rebuilding the starter.

[MescaBug]

Thanks a lot guys. I'm glad I found this forum. I will try hitting the starter, see what happens.

Best plan would be to replace everything, like 4dblnkldude said. And that's what I'm going to do. It's a real soup under that hood... I just want to hear that 400 runs for a minute or two

[Kitch428m21]

When I first got my Pontiac, this would happen to me everytime after initial warm up. 15 min later, varoom!
Then i joined Pontiac forums and found out this was very typical of Pontiac starters. Call "the hot start problem".
I saw that AMES sold a solenoid heat shield, so I tried that. No different. Then I bought their mini high torque starter and never had a problem again.
I did find green corrosion on the solenoid wire while making a new connector end. It was 2" up the wire, so very high resistance was there for sure!

[MescaBug]

The engine is a 74' 400, with auto trans. I notices yesterday that there was a sensor located on each heads. Driver side sensor is the 'cold feed switch'. And the passenger side is the 'hot coolant switch' or 'thermal override switch'. Correct me if I'm wrong, but that sensor is supposed to prevent the engine from starting if it's too hot, somewhere around 240F.

Well, this sensor is not hooked up to anything!! Could that explain my ignition problem? Do you think the sensor can 'foul' the system into thinking it's too hot, thus preventing it from starting?

I didn't receive my service manuals yet. Anybody knows where that sensor is suppose to be hooked up? I'm using the picture of another member. Keep in mind that mine is not connected.