[rowling]

I replaced the front springs on my 71 GTO. I brought it to get an alignment and the alignment shop tells me that the frame is sagging - "it happens all the time to these Big-Block cars..."

He then went on to say that he can get the frame straightened out for around $400 or $500 - cash.

I think I'm getting a line of BS - does this sound right ?

Thanks in advance.

Glen.

["QUICK-SILVER"]

Have the new springs got the front end setting so high that the tires are tilted in at the top?

[shineybike]

How is the fitment of your doors? That might be a clue as to whether it's sagging or not.

[mechanickeith]

Sounds like he is looking for some quick cash!!! Tell him to go pound sand.

[F ROCK]

both my cars lean to the driver side.

[steve]

i had a mustang that was bent. you could put a tape measure on parts of the frame and see where it was off. ask him to show you where it is bent.

[dmorg1]

Are you running offset upper control arm shafts? They will correct minor cross member sag. They will also compensate for a tall ride height.

Dave

[Schurkey]

"Frame sag" may or may not be the problem with your vehicle. Lord knows, it's common enough to hear about frame sag on the '64--'72 "A" body; and plenty of others for that matter.

In my experience, while it's possible for the frame to bend--it's actually more likely that something ELSE has worn out, and the frame is taking the blame.

I'd be looking mighty close at the control arm bushings--upper and lower. If they're original--THEY'RE SHOT.

Ball joints are also suspect; as are the control arms themselves. My El Camino had bent upper control arms on both sides when I bought it. It happens. In my case, it was because some moron had installed the world's tallest front springs, but didn't re-install the rubber bumpers that go between frame and upper control arm. The arms pounded themselves silly on the frame because the springs were too tall.

[rowling]

Thanks for the input.
- yes the tires are now tilted in at the top but I had an earlier alignment when the springs were shot. I liked the raked look with the worn springs so I got the wheels aligned to the worn springs. I got tired of bottoming out so I changed the springs last fall before storing the car.
- the door comment is interesting because my drivers door is rubbing at the front edge against the inside of the fender when it opens, but for the most part started that shortly after paint (of course) so I blamed it on the paint guy.
- I dont think it is sitting higher than what should be higher than normal ride hight - the springs appear to have settled in correctly
- No I don't have offset control arm shafts

I didn't realize frame sag issues were common on the A bodies. This, unfortunately, is the first I have heard about it. Ball joints were replaced two years ago but I think there's a good chance that control arm bushings may be original. Are they a PITA to replace?

Glen.

[amcmike]

Originally Posted by rowling

- the door comment is interesting because my drivers door is rubbing at the front edge against the inside of the fender when it opens, but for the most part started that shortly after paint (of course) so I blamed it on the paint guy.

That probably is the paint guy if he removed the fenders and/or doors to paint. Getting them properly realigned can be a PITA.

You should search to see if anyone has frame dimensions for your car, so you can measure yourself. I smell BS on this one.

[Grant Miller]

Originally Posted by rowling

Ball joints were replaced two years ago but I think there's a good chance that control arm bushings may be original. Are they a PITA to replace?

Glen.

It's not too bad if you have a decent place to work. Just pull the control arms off and have someone with a press install the bushings. The biggest issue is the lower arms because of the spring pressure. Make sure you handle this appropriately for safety reasons.

[Schurkey]

Originally Posted by Grant Miller

It's not too bad if you have a decent place to work. Just pull the control arms off and have someone with a press install the bushings. The biggest issue is the lower arms because of the spring pressure. Make sure you handle this appropriately for safety reasons.

Better yet: Use Polyurethane bushings. (Provided that your outer shells aren't so far gone as to have wear on them! Worn shells are possible but not usual.)

DON'T press the old bushings out. Burn the rubber out with a propane torch. The rubber will poop out easily.

Clean up the original steel shells with emery cloth so they're nice 'n' pretty inside. Grease the poly bushings and slide them and the steel sleeve into the original shells.

Can't be easier for a DIY installation. No press needed, no press fixtures 'n' tools--just a propane torch.

Watch out for the spattering rubber as you warm up the bushings--they do spit 'n' smoke.

The second advantage of the poly bushings is that you can then re-torque the control arm bolts with the suspension in any convenient position. With rubber bushings, you have to have the suspension at normal ride height to torque the bushings.

[performerrpm]

you could always get a second opinion from another alignment shop.

[Overkillphil]

All frames can have issues but the A-body frames are no more prone to having problems than others. I would say less as they are pretty robust compared to many other vehicles.

I've seen quite a few frame sag problems in the 2nd gen F-body cars similiar to the problem in this thread but not A-body cars.

Purportedly, A-body cars ( in certain cases) tend to "relax" under the firewall area where the frame makes an upturn into the engine compartment. Can be aggravated by high torque engines and/or high mileage cars.

Agree on the second opinion. Also, a typical characteristic of a sagging frame is the car won't hold an alignment. But that assumes all the suspension parts are in top shape.

[lust4speed]

Let us know how many shims are present at the control arm shaft. If you are down to the shaft almost touching the frame with only one shim, then I would agree with the alignment shop. If there is a half inch of shims or so, then I wouldn't blame it on a bent cross member. At that point I would be looking for another alignment shop.

[b-man]

Your crossmember very well could be sagging.

The 400 to 500 dollar price is what's really questionable, shouldn't cost half that to bend it back into spec on a frame rack.

Somebody is trying to make some quick cash off of you, especially so since he didn't mention replacing all of the worn original control arm bushings first.

On the poly bushings: the last set I installed in the rear of an A-body car like yours used a thicker outer shell, the original shells were made from thinner metal so they couldn't be used with the poly bushings. Not sure if that will be the case with the front bushings, but be aware.

I burn out the old rubber myself as well, messy though and the molten rubber will mark it's territory so don't do it on a nice driveway. After the old rubber is out of the shell you can either reuse the shells if applicable or remove them with a chisel.

["QUICK-SILVER"]

Did they even try to align it? Pull the thick stack of shims out where it had been aligned setting low?
Or just look at it and say it needed bridged?

If it was from looking only, you definitely need to find another shop.

[J.C.you]

it is not un common, especially with a body bb chebby cars. i had to have a 71 bb chevelle straightened, also had a 74 bb vette welds break loose and cause the front to sag. just look at some of the factory welds on the front of these cars! scarrey, bubble gummers!

you might want to jack it up and inspect it and make sure a weld did not break loose.

that is a high price to put the car on the frame machine to straighten it tho....

[rowling]

I really appreciate this discussion. Thanks.

I have another alignment shop booked for Tuesday. I haven't said anything about this to them - just asked for an alignment but in discussion with the owner I feel that he may be a bit more knowledgeable on Pontiacs. This is based on his 66 and 67 GTOs that he keeps in his shop.

The first shop didn't even try to do an alignment so that did raise some doubts with me as well.

I'll let you know what the shop says on Tuesday.

[NoMoCEO]

How does a frame shop address the sag, since the frames not really bent, more like fatigued and flexed?