[Cobrabill]

I'm calling B.S. on this one.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worl...#ixzz0MaXyMQKS

[badws6]

Northrop built one in 1949 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northrop_YB-49

[MikeNoun]

That's actually real, and very true. The National Geographic Channel ran a 1-hour documentary on the Horten Ho 229 (by the way, the author of the article you linked doesn't have a clue, he called it the 2-29), and they recreated the aircraft from original technical drawings, put it up on Lockheed's testing "pole" in the desert, and tested the radar signature. It was about 20% less than a typical aircraft. The design was intended to beat the English radar stations on the coast by getting close enough that the RAF would only have around 2 minutes to react, and this Horten 229 was so fast, there was no way Spitfires or Typhoons would have caught them anyway.

The more you read about the Luftwaffe secret projects, the more you realize they were years and years ahead of American and British development. The German engineers and designers were so advanced, several historians had said that when American and British designers saw (after the war) what they built, what was in process, and especially what was on the drawing board, they realized that the Germans could have easily won the war if it weren't for the ol' Adolf's incompetence.

The technology and designs from the German aircraft designers were what formed our post-war technology. The F-86 Sabre (and Soviet Mig) aircraft were lifted directly from Messerschmidt and Focke-Wulf designs that were on the drawing boards. The Messerschmidt 1101 was actually partially built when it discovered by Allied troops. It's obvious the Americans used this aircraft as the base for the F-86 Sabre. Our post-war rocket technology came straight from the V-2 program, and we used captured German scientists to develop our space program. Nuclear fission was discovered by German scientists, and they were close to developing their own A-bomb (luckily for us, Adolf's incompetence prevented its development before the end of the war), and the flying wing dates back to he 1930's gliders by the Horten Brothers in Germany. The delta wing was perfected in Germany too, and Lockheed used that technology to develop post-war aircraft.

[jhann42]

I believe that I read that the B1 was so unstable that they had to develop computers to control it. Germany wouldn't have had the technology in 1944 to do so. Jon

[MikeNoun]

The flying wing dates back to 1930's Germany. They were building gliders using flying wing and delta wing technology, and later developed for WWII. The German aircraft designers were at least 10 years more advanced than the American and British designers.

The German designers also had radio controlled V-1's that were launched from a bomber, and guided to the target by a man in the bomber. They also tested TV camera technology in a guided V-1, similar to what we saw 45 years later in Desert Storm.

If you see that National Geographic special on the building of the Ho229, the old retired Lockheed engineers had no idea that Germany built this plane in 1944. From us WWII aircraft geeks, we knew about this aircraft for the past 20 or so years.

The FW-190 fighter was also the first aircraft to use a single-yoke control. When a man went to scratch build an FW-190 a few years ago, he approached a large aircraft company about providing a possible duplicate of the Focke-Wulf design from 1943. The engineers were stunned. They had no idea that the single yoke control dated back 50+ years. They thought that it was developed in the mid-1950's by American engineers.

This is the fighter version of the Horten flying wing.



And this is the Messerchmidt P1101. You can see how Amercian and Russian post-war aircraft development came from these Luftwaffe designs, especially the Bell experimental aircraft (taken directly from this German aircraft).

[67blackcherry]

The more you read about the Luftwaffe secret projects, the more you realize they were years and years ahead of American and British development. The German engineers and designers were so advanced, several historians had said that when American and British designers saw (after the war) what they built, what was in process, and especially what was on the drawing board, they realized that the Germans could have easily won the war if it weren't for the ol' Adolf's incompetence.

Yup. If not for a few military blunders (failure to achieve air superiority over England, attacking Russia at the end of summer, etc) WWII may have had quite a different outcome. The German engineers were brilliant and forward thinking. However, like in real life, upper management had to go and screw it up!

[Goin' Topless]

I second that. I have books at home that show blueprints and partially assembled planes like these. The allies won the war by shutting down Germany's resources, not by technological means.

Germany also was the first to develop synthetic oil, I believe.

They also pioneered the use of NOS. Late in the war, the allied planes were outclimbing the Messerschmitts which is a huge advantage in a dogfight. A 3-4 second shot of NOS evened the playing field but you could only do it once or you'd fry the engine. Something about pistons turning into molten lumps...

[MikeNoun]

My favorite quote of WWII was from a top turret gunner on a B-17G the first time any Allied bombers encountered a small group of Me-262 fighters. The gunners and pilots of these massive formations were watching for Me109's and Fw190's. Suddenly, in came these swept wing planes, fuselages shaped like sharks, with no propellers, blazing through the bomber stacks at 500+ mph, at least 100 mph faster than anything the Americans had ever seen in the sky. The top turret gunner radioed, "What the HELL was THAT?"

The bomber crews stated they were terrified of the Me-262, partly because of its speed, but also because the Germans were using air-to-air rockets. One hit, and a 4-engined B-24 or B-17 would explode, with little chance of any survivors. The Allied commanders wisely tried to keep this information from creating widespread panic in the bomber groups, but stories from returning bomber groups fanned the flames. As scared as the Allied crews were of the Me-262, they were even more terrified of the little Me163 Komet rocket-powered fighter, which blew through formations at nearly 600 mph, while helpless P-51 Mustangs watched in disbelief. The bomber's electrically powered turrets couldn't track fast enough to get their sights on an Me163.

The only thing the P-51 and P-47 pilots could do was follow the jet and rocket fighters down to treetop level and get them while they landed or took off. Very few Me262's were shot down in combat, and those that were were usually due to an engine failure, or pilot error. Pretty amazing considering the Me262's flew at a time when the Allied-to-Axis air power balance was about 50 to 1 in favor of the Allies.

[Goin' Topless]

Chuck Yeager said they called the new jet fighters "bl_wjobs."

[Cobrabill]

The 163 was good for one pass and that was it.Back to the wing.It never flew under it's own power.It wasn't EVER even in the same "galaxy" as a real threat.The author seems to have added a bit of "fluff" shall we say?

[Greg 66]

It did fly in Dec of 1944. I agree with everyone it was much to late. Considering the technology of the day it was a incredible achievement. The National Geographic special showed the flights of the prototype.


http://channel.nationalgeographic.co...3#tab-Overview

[MikeNoun]

The Me163 was stationed around high priority targets. While they were a menace to bombers, more Me163's were lost to ground accidents (explosions) while landing or taking off than in combat. But they terrified the Allied bomber crews. Can't say I blame them.

The Ho229 was never a threat to the overall outcome of the war, but a threat to what "could" have been if it was developed properly without the Hitler's interventions. The author of that article that Bill linked is obviously trying to drum up some interest in the National Geographic special, so it''s typical media hype to sell a product. Hitler saw no use for a bomber, whether 4-engined or otherwise, because he thought the war would be over by 1941. By the time he allowed bombers to be developed (1943), his decision came way too late to effect the war, so Germany never had a heavy 4-engined bomber. The Arado 234 jet bomber was another brilliant design that could have changed the course of the war, or at least greatly extended it, if it were built in numbers. But again, it wasn't given the green light until late in the war. HAnd another of Hitler's poor decisions was turn the Me262 fighter into a bomber that could carry two bombs, and his insistence that all bombers must dive.

Meanwhile, Allied B-17's, B-24's, and Lancasters won the war.

Also, plans were underway for an "America Bomber". The plan was to hit New York with a "dirty bomb", releasing radioactive debris over the city, causing hundreds of thousands of deaths. The plan was to use a newly developed extended range bomber (Junkers), or a giant float plane that could be refueled at sea by U-boats.

The Ho229 flying wing was nothing new, as the Horten Brothers had made dozens of flights to test their theories using gliders back in the 30's, and they made several powered (propeller) flying wings. Northrop development was years behind the Germans.

[hurryinhoosier62]

Cobrabill,

There is a Horten-designed fighter in the Smithsonian restoration facility in Silver Hills,
Maryland. It was flown in 1944. That was 4yrs BEFORE Jack Northup flew the XB-35 and
the YB-49. Just because the info doesn't agree with your opinion doesn't make it wrong.

[Cobrabill]

Originally Posted by hurryinhoosier62

Cobrabill,

There is a Horten-designed fighter in the Smithsonian restoration facility in Silver Hills,
Maryland. It was flown in 1944. That was 4yrs BEFORE Jack Northup flew the XB-35 and
the YB-49. Just because the info doesn't agree with your opinion doesn't make it wrong.

Huh?Mind telling me what my opinion is?

[hurryinhoosier62]

Typical for people who've never studied WWII. We (the U.S.) had the best weapons,
the best men and the Nips and Krauts NEVER had a chance. IF you study the air war
in particular, you'll come to the conclusion it was the grace of God and American industrial capacity that won the war. As good a fighter as the P-51 was, it was still
1930's technology. Hitler's insanity and intransigence kept the ME262 out of action
until 1944. Had it available in sufficient numbers in 1943, it is debatable whether Operation Overlord would or could have taken place. The P-80 and the Meteor were
no match for the ME262. It was faster, better armed and more maneuverable. Remember,the ME262 was the the Third Reich's FIRST generation of jet fighters. The
Horten flying wing and the Focke Wulf jet fighters were second generation fighters,
decades ahead of their Allied contemporaries.

[Cobrabill]

Originally Posted by hurryinhoosier62

1)Typical for people who've never studied WWII. We (the U.S.) had the best weapons,
the best men and the Nips and Krauts NEVER had a chance. 2)IF you study the air war
in particular, you'll come to the conclusion it was the grace of God and American industrial capacity that won the war. 3)As good a fighter as the P-51 was, it was still
1930's technology. Hitler's insanity and intransigence kept the ME262 out of action
until 1944. Had it available in sufficient numbers in 1943, it is debatable whether Operation Overlord would or could have taken place. The P-80 and the Meteor were
no match for the ME262. 4)It was faster, better armed and more maneuverable. Remember,the ME262 was the the Third Reich's FIRST generation of jet fighters. The
Horten flying wing and the Focke Wulf jet fighters were second generation fighters,
decades ahead of their Allied contemporaries.

1)I've forgotton more about WWII than you'll ever know.
2)Again,i realized that when i was 10 years old
3)No-it was 40's technology.
4)Again, not a news flash.

I suggest you brush up on your comprehension.The article i linked is full of sh!t a several levels.But it also is accurate on others.One issue that is bogus is claiming it was a threat -it wasn't.German vs American advancements isn't the issue.The aircraft NEVER flew under it's own power.German heavy water experiments were a perceived threat also...NOT.

[rexus31]

Originally Posted by Cobrabill

1)I've forgotton more about WWII than you'll ever know.
2)Again,i realized that when i was 10 years old
3)No-it was 40's technology.
4)Again, not a news flash.

I suggest you brush up on your comprehension.The article i linked is full of sh!t a several levels.But it also is accurate on others.One issue that is bogus is claiming it was a threat -it wasn't.German vs American advancements isn't the issue.The aircraft NEVER flew under it's own power.German heavy water experiments were a perceived threat also...NOT.

Please provide proof it never flew. I watched the National Geographic special on this plane and according to them it flew.

[Cobrabill]

"The first Ho IX V1, an unpowered glider, flew on 1 March 1944. Flight results were very favorable, but there was a landing accident when the pilot attempted to land without first retracting an instrument-carrying pole extending from the aircraft. The design was taken from the Horten brothers and given to Gothaer Waggonfabrik. The Gotha team made some changes: They added a simple ejection seat, dramatically changed the undercarriage to enable a higher gross weight, changed the jet engine inlets, and added a system to carry cold air to cool the jet engine's outer casing, as the wing was made of wood.[1]

All subsequent flights and development were done by Gotha. By this time, the Horton brothers were working on the Amerika Bomber.[3]

The Horten Ho IX V1 was followed in December 1944 by the Junkers Jumo 004-powered Ho IX V2; the BMW 003 engine was preferred but unavailable at the time. Göring believed in the design and ordered a production series of 40 aircraft at Gotha with the RLM designation Ho 229 before it had taken to the air under jet power. The program was undeterred when the sole Ho IX V2 crashed after an engine caught fire on 18 February 1945 after only two hours of flying time. An order was put in for further prototypes and 20 pre-production aircraft. On 12 March 1945, the Ho 229 was included in the Jäger-Notprogramm for accelerated production of inexpensive "wonder weapons."

During the final stages of the war, the U.S. military initiated Operation Paperclip, which was an effort by the various intelligence agencies to capture advanced German weapons research, and to deny that research to advancing Soviet troops. A Horten glider and the Ho 229 V3, which was undergoing final assembly, were secured and sent to Northrop Corporation in the United States for evaluation. Northrop was chosen because of their experience with flying wings, inspired by the Horten brothers' pre-war record setting glider. Jack Northrop had been building flying wings since the N-1M in 1939."




I stand corrected.Sort of.The sole copy flew for two hours and then crashed.I suppose it flew in a "Spruce Goose" sorta way.The rest were "towed glider" flights.

[rexus31]

In watching the National Geographic special I was amazed the Germans had the engineering knowledge to build a stealth wing in the '40's. I knew about the Me262 which I thought was an amazing aircraft for its day. To think the Germans could have had stealth technology too is just mind boggling. Good thing Hitler had poor decision making.

[Cobrabill]

[QUOTE=rexus31 Good thing Hitler had poor decision making.[/QUOTE]To that note....i was watching a show on snipers.We diecided to NOT send a team after Hitler as his presence would HASTEN the end of war.