[safari]

I did not scan the whole thing but I copied and scaned the relevant info. Nowhere do I find the roof drip scalp mouldings mentioned as a seperate item

[safari]

sorry for the poor quality scans, I rescaned and hopefully they will be clearer.
Iwill have to rescan page 2 again, wouldn't upload.

[safari]

page 2

[John V.]

Safari, that helps a lot!

But it probably raises as many questions as it answers.

The Roof Drip Rail Moldings were originally shown as Standard Equipment for the Base Firebird. With this announcement, they were obviously deleted. But...

The Bulletin does not disclose how you could get Roof Drip Rail Moldings as an option going forward.

The Price List shows that the Roof Drip Rail Moldings were no longer included with the Base Model 6 cyl, or with the Sprint 6 cyl, or with the 350 (2 bbl or 4 bbl).

But the Roof Drip Rail Moldings along with the Glove Box Lamp and the Instrument Panel Courtesy Lamp were now all included with the 400 option and the RAIV option as part of those packages.

So you still automatically got Roof Drip Rail Moldings with any 400 option.

The Order Form added individual option listings for the Glove Box Lamp, the I.P. Courtesy Lamp, and the Space Saver Spare. But it did not add a listing for the Roof Drip Moldings. The I.P. Courtesy Lamp remained Standard Equipment for the Convertible, this isn't mentioned in the Bulletin. The Bulletin really is lacking in detail, there are two different tires listed without explanation. The E70-14 Blackwall was originally Standard on the Base 6 cyl, the F70-14 Blackwall was originally Standard on the Sprint 6 cyl and 350. It looks like they made a 7.35x14 Blackwall the Standard tire for the Base Model and the 7.75x14 Blackwall became Standard for the Sprint and 350 with the F70-14 remaining for the 400 Options, but the Bulletin does not fully explain. The late Order Form doesn't help because it continues to show the Base Model with the E70-14 and the Sprint & up with the F70-14, I suspect this was an oversight in light of this Bulletin. I suspect a couple more Tire options are listed on the late Order Form as compared to earlier versions and the pricing would have been revised considering the lower cost Base tire now being installed.

I believe the Decor Group option price was increased at this time. I strongly believe that the Roof Drip Moldings were added to the Decor Group option at this time, accounting for the increase.

But since they were also made part of the 400 options, one could have expected that the pricing would have reflected this.

In other words, PMD could have shown a reduced price for the Code 324 Decor Group in combination with a 400 option. Or else, they could have shown two different prices for the 400 options, one with and one without Decor Group.

Since they did not, you effectively paid for the Roof Drip Moldings twice when ordered with the 400 options.

And since the Roof Drip Molding was not made an individual option, the only way to get it on a 6 cyl or 350 car was to order the Decor Group.

The TA option wasn't yet being offered, I'm not sure if Roof Drip Moldings became a standard feature of the TA option or not.

Does anybody happen to know what, if any, other Decor Moldings would have been part of the Decor Group?

I believe that Wheel Opening Moldings were ALWAYS part of the Firebird Decor Group in '69. They are not indicated as Standard Equipment early or late anywhere I've looked and there is no listing of an individual option for them. I believe the only way you got them was with the Decor Group.

I agree with Kurt, the timing of this announcement and the appearance of various codes on Lordstown Firebird Data Plates does fit.

However, Lordstown didn't previously feel compelled to add any codes to the Data Plate and I'm guessing there were other Body Options that could have been treated in the same manner if they were so inclined.

At least two of the cars found with codes were 350 equipped, so it will be interesting to discover if any 400 equipped Lordstown builds received a code (even though Roof Drip Rail Moldings apparently remained standard with the 400).

I do know for sure that Norwood coded some TAs with the AEE code on the Data Plate, presumably because they were optioned with the Decor Group.

I believe it has long been believed that the AEE code was connected to the Roof Drip Moldings and the Wheel Opening Moldings.

As I commented above, I do not know if the TA got Roof Drip Rail Moldings as standard. But perhaps the AEE code was connected to the Decor Group, at least whatever components of it affected Fisher Body.

Roof Drip Rail Moldings obviously affected Fisher Body, but at the same time, I've recorded two Lordstown 350 converts with a code. If the only consideration was Roof Drip Rail Moldings, then this would have been a mistake (not unheard of but does confound us when we try to figure out the meaning).

If we can find more 03-B & 03-C Lordstown Data Plates with and without codes and can document whether the cars were equipped with the Decor Group or not, perhaps the mystery will unravel.

Kurt, I checked my log. Of all the Norwood Data Plates I've recorded with AEE, none of them have been Convertibles. How about you? By the same token, I've logged just a couple Norwood Convertible Data Plates and not sure if any of them had the Decor Group. If the Norwood AEE means Roof Drip Rail Molding specifically, you won't expect to find it on a Convertible Data Plate. But if it means Decor Group generally, I would expect to find some on Convertibles.

[fbirdinconcord]

That T/A shell on ebay now is coded AEED80 and has wheel well moldings. From what you can see on the passenger side it does not appear to have the drip rail trim.

[Kurt S]

Originally Posted by John V.

In other words, PMD could have shown a reduced price for the Code 324 Decor Group in combination with a 400 option. Or else, they could have shown two different prices for the 400 options, one with and one without Decor Group.

Since they did not, you effectively paid for the Roof Drip Moldings twice when ordered with the 400 options.

I've seen this several times on options.
Sometimes they go to great lengths to break down the prices in combination with other options. Sometimes they just double charged people, mostly for small trim stuff like this.

Kurt, I checked my log. Of all the Norwood Data Plates I've recorded with AEE, none of them have been Convertibles. How about you? By the same token, I've logged just a couple Norwood Convertible Data Plates and not sure if any of them had the Decor Group. If the Norwood AEE means Roof Drip Rail Molding specifically, you won't expect to find it on a Convertible Data Plate. But if it means Decor Group generally, I would expect to find some on Convertibles.

No AEE's on convertibles so far.
One NOR convertible has 324 documented, but doesn't have the AEE.
I forget where in the plant the wheelwell trim was installed.....

[Keith Seymore]

Originally Posted by Kurt S

I forget where in the plant the wheelwell trim was installed.....

In all the truck plants I've worked in wheel opening trim is installed in the body Trim area (for the rear) and the front end sheet metal build area (for front fenders).

However, we had a body clamshell that grabbed at the rocker area. I see by the (now famous) 69' Firebird body drop photo that the clamshell grabbed in the rear wheel opening in addition to the front of the rocker panel. I would personally be concerned that that location would damage a wheel opening molding and that perhaps they should have been installed on the final line.

FWIW -

K

In this photo the car does not appear to have wheel opening trim. It could be that it has not been installed yet or perhaps this car was not optioned to receive it:

[Kurt S]

John Z agrees with you on the front mouldings. And the front clip picture shows that.
http://www.camaros.org/assemblyprocess.shtml#chevmetal

I'll have to ask him on the rears. None on that 67 body being married to the chassis.

[Transamric]

Interesting to notice that the rear ends axle tubes appear to be painted Black, while the brake backing plates are natural steel. Quite the opposite of what some restoration "experts" claim is correct.

If this particular Red FB was not optioned with wheel opening moldings, would the quarter panels lips still have had the screw hole punctures?

[Doug Hopkins]

Also if you look there is paint on the exhaust pipes. Which means the rear axle was purposely painted during assembly. The supposed restoration experts must have missed this also!

[Kurt S]

The axles from Detroit Gear and Axle were painted by Detroit. A cover was installed over the pinion to keep the paint off and the backing plates were painted at the same time.
This is applicable for Camaros, but I have no idea who was the axle source for Firebirds. From what I've heard, they weren't painted??

[1969T/A]

Theres nine cars from lordstown that have extra codes and counting.

22367 LOR 540390 208 52-B 03 B B 80
22337 LOR 540516 207 7272 03 B B80
22337 LOR 540618 200 5353 03 B BD4
22367 LOR 540680 202 61 A 03 B B80
22367 LOR 541170 206 59G 03 B D80
22337 LOR 541535 206 59-g 03 B B80
22337 LOR 542640 208 76b 03 B B80
22337 LOR 542884 207 53-e 03 C B80
22337 LOR 543293 200 87 E 03 C B80

[Kurt S]

I'd be betting that all are B80.

[1969T/A]

I also came across these codes on lordstown cars tonight

22337 LOR 21519 253 7r2 02 E 2wg
22367 LOR 503001 200 87A 09 B V118
22367 LOR 529750 203 72B 01 C N037
22337 LOR 537617 208 6565 05 E U430
22367 LOR 512710 202 73 12 G479
22337 LOR vn5164 207 5151 01 D N037

[Transamric]

Are you sure that last batch you posted are Lordstown (LOR) codes & not Van Nuys (LOS) codes?? Van Nuys did use the 4 digit codes that begin with a letter & then (usually) 3 numbers.

[1969T/A]

Originally Posted by Transamric

Are you sure that last batch you posted are Lordstown (LOR) codes & not Van Nuys (LOS) codes?? Van Nuys did use the 4 digit codes that begin with a letter & then (usually) 3 numbers.

They Are Lordstown (LOR) Codes

[John V.]

1969T/A, I hope you are collecting VINs along with pix of the Data Plates? And best if you also have the Invoice record coupled with the Data Plate pic.

It is a FACT that some (not all) 03B & 03C Lordstown built '69 Firebirds will have some sort of code on the Data Plate. None prior and 03B & 03C were the last 2 weeks of production at Lordstown. WHY they have a code is what is left to establish.

Of the 9 you posted on 11/8 at 12:45PM, I only have 2 on my own VIN list. Aside from your 350 convertible which does show the Decor Group on the Invoice, the only other one that we both list is Body No. LOR 540680. The VIN is 223679U134776. The Data Plate pic I have for it was too poor to be sure, but the code appeared to read B80. This is also a 350 convert, built within a day or two of your own, also showed the Decor Group on the Invoice.

If you ARE collecting VINs and Invoices for each of these, be sure to check if the Decor Group is on the Invoice and check the engine option also.

It is ALSO useful to log 03B & 03C Lordstown Firebirds that do NOT have the extra code and check to see if the Decor Group is on the Invoice and also what optional engine was included.

By process of elimination, we may be able to interpret the reason for the code.

The Body Nos. you posted on 11/9 at 1:32AM are NOT generally '69 Lordstown Firebirds. MOST of them are Van Nuys cars and meaningless to the Lordstown research.

The codes on them pertain to a Daily Sequence code.

I would welcome the opportunity to add any Van Nuys data to my '69 Firebird VIN log but the data is corrupted, so I would be hesitant to do so without Invoice records and pix of Data Plates.

For example, the first one on your list is most likely a '67 Firebird Data Plate. The 2wg is most likely a 5 Group Accessory code, and actually coded 2WG (not with lower case letters as posted). 5 Group Accessory codes were coded on Lordstown Data Plates, but the last year for them was '67.

503001 checks out as a Sept. built Van Nuys Body No. though I would want to doublecheck that the Time Built code is 09B and not perhaps 09D.

529750 & 537617 are both VERY fishy. The first one almost fits as a Lordstown Body No. from January. However, Lordstown did not use the Van Nuys Daily Production code system, so this is suspect.

537617 is totally bogus for a '69. The highest Van Nuys '69 Body No. was about 523000. The problem is, no '69 Firebird from Van Nuys or Lordstown would show a Time Built code of 05E. Van Nuys went on strike, latest Time Built code would be 05B. Lordstown production was terminated, latest Time Built code would be 03C. Lordstown 'bird production was transferred to Norwood, earliest Time Built code would be 04B.

However, Norwood did not code the Van Nuys type Daily Production sequence code either, plus Norwood Body Nos. were 500001 thru about 515000 (in August) at which time the Body No. set was resequenced to 700001 and ran thru about 715000 (when production ended in Nov. '69).

512710 looks like it is likely a correct Van Nuys Data Plate, but the Plant code should show LOS. And the Time Built code is listed as "12", it should most likely show 12B. Not long after this one and sometime in Dec., the Van Nuys Plant revised the code on the Data Plate from "LOS" to "VN".

The last one on that list is butchered. The Time Built code is likely 01D as indicated. But the Body No. is incorrectly noted and incomplete. It should be "VN 5164**", in other words, 6 digits after the "VN" Plant code. It would NOT have shown "LOS" on the Data Plate and certainly not "LOR" as posted.

1969T/A, when data isn't carefully collected and anomalies carefully documented, it is pretty worthless. I understand the info you posted was collected by others (and I think I know where). Unfortunately, carelessly reported Owner info just adds confusion. Better when you carefully collect the info directly from what you can see if you want to eventually figure out what the code might mean.

Kurt, don't be so sure that they would all be B80. Long before I headed down this path, Ric recorded info from an 03C Lordstown 'bird that showed AEE on the Data Plate. And the pic evidence from 1969T/A's own Data Plate supports that it was coded D80. I'd really like to obtain more info and evidence for the one he reported as BD4.

I personally think that most or all have the code because of the Decor Group option and connected to the change of Roof Scalp Drip Molding from standard equipment to optional equipment that was announced March 13 and effective for all Firebird production starting March 17.

How this would have impacted a Convertible is unclear and perhaps simply evidence of coding errors as the revision took place.

The revision announcement is not entirely clear, but the Roof Scalp Drip Moldings may have been added as part of any 400 engine option package even as they were deleted from standard 'bird content. And they may have been made part of the Decor Group which appears like the only way you could get them on a 350 or OHC6 'bird after the change. This is why it is crucial to establish if an 03B or 03C Lordstown 'bird with any Data Plate code was equipped with the Decor Group and/or optional 400 engine and for those with no code, whether any showed the Decor Group option or 400 engine during the same time period.

I believe there were approx. 2500 '69 'birds produced at Lordstown during this time frame, so it is NOT a very large sample to study. That makes trying to uncover the whole story for these codes especially difficult. Personally, I'm surprised that we've been able to discover as much of the story as we have.

[Transamric]

Thanks John,... & well said as always. It seemed obvious to me too, that the last batch of numbers posted were Van Nuys.

[1969T/A]

Originally Posted by Transamric

Thanks John,... & well said as always. It seemed obvious to me too, that the last batch of numbers posted were Van Nuys.

The last batch of numbers are all from 1969 Lordstown cars.
I know some will disagree but you cant please everyone.

[Kurt S]

Originally Posted by John V.

And the pic evidence from 1969T/A's own Data Plate supports that it was coded D80. I'd really like to obtain more info and evidence for the one he reported as BD4.

Umm, you mean the one fuzzy picture that he posted and refuses to post another one? Even though he owns the car and wants to prove it's a D80?

I am interested in seeing the AEE and BD4 anomalies (really any B80 tag) in picture form. I've been doing this long enough to have been told lots of things, but the pics sometimes tell different stories.

Without VIN's and tag pictures, that tag-only data is not useful / referenceable.

Originally Posted by 1969T/A

The last batch of numbers are all from 1969 Lordstown cars.
I know some will disagree but you cant please everyone.

Dave,
I'm sorry, but I know you are wrong here. I have the pics for some of those tags and they are LOS. The VIN for the LOS512710 tag is 9L111135, sold new in Denver. The missing data is 73-A and 12B, btw.

John's analysis of them is pretty much spot-on.
The first one is a 67, LOR didn't use the scheduling #, and there are no 05E cars for either LOR or LOS (LOS was on strike and LOR had transferred the production to NOR).

You need better/more traceable source data......