[62fatcat]

red CUOPe,
with all the we coments i am led to believe the guy doing all the work and assembling is the i and we of the build.
if not i apolagize. this thead is ine of the most well thought out and constructed that i have seen about a pontiac engine in a long time. keep up the good work!!

brad spide.

[merlin5353]

[Red Coupe]

Originally Posted by 62fatcat

red CUOPe,
with all the we coments i am led to believe the guy doing all the work and assembling is the i and we of the build.
if not i apolagize. this thead is ine of the most well thought out and constructed that i have seen about a pontiac engine in a long time. keep up the good work!!

brad spide.

Brad-I appreciate the sums up. I'm also hoping that the guys in the board will continue to join in and add their experience to the thread.

[Steve Barcak]

I may have missed some things you wrote but, I see many things over looked pertaining specifically to a Pontiac build.
in no order-
1. you did not mention how important it is to remember to install the rear oil galley plug that hides next to the distributor. A first time Pontiac builder would easily overlook this.
2. you did not mention the importance of installing the dip stick tube prior to assembly. Perhaps, it was never removed but, many shops and builders remove them during the cleaning process. I do not know how many people over the years have told me they forgot this after they installed the pan.
3. Before installing the oil pump, I like to install the distributor so the drive shaft doesn't move around while you are turning the block over while on the stand.
4.I like to check to make sure the cam bearings are installed properly before I start assembly. that is done by looking up the main oil feed holes to see if the hole in the bearing is in the right place.
5. next, I always do a test fit of the cam prior to any assembly incase a cam bearing was put in at an angle.
6. it is easy for a novice to forget to install the small expansion plug on the back side next to the dist.
7. In the picture of the guy putting in a piston. I find it wise to use one hand to hold the ring compressor tight against the deck of the block. Otherwise, it is easy for a ring to pop out if the tool does not stay flat. It is important not to chip a ring.
8. You did not add the important cooling holes in the deck
9. did you check piston to wall clearance? I would never consider assembling an engine with aftermarket pistons and not do that. In adequate piston to wall can lead to overheating and black death.

10. I know different people like to do things different. I see nothing wrong with the way you check for valve clearance but, it is much easier, faster and less messy to not use the clay. With light duty helper springs, you can simply push down on the end of the rocker arm and feel how much room there is as you rotate the engine.

11. also, when installing pistons/rods, the bearing has a chamfer on one side. That is the side that goes toward the outside of the jounal. Also, the bevels/grooves on the rods always match the caps when installing.
Best you with your build.
Steve

[67 Lamnas]

Maybe you haven't gotten to it yet, or maybe I'm a buffoon and missed it, but I like to always degree the cam........and make sure it's done BEFORE Steve Barcak's #10 listed above......

[Steve Barcak]

Here are some more things I noticed and wish to contribute here.

12.On your teardown pics and your comments. Just because there are some scratches on the skirts does not mean boring is required. Maybe, maybe not.

13. I see nothing about rear main installation? This is among the most important parts of assembly and youo pass over it. Curious as to why you would omit such an important part. I do not see where you even mention what type of seal you used? ??? There is the myth that all Pontiacs leak.

14. Your pic of the bearing show the dirt in them only shows they bearings did their job and contained the crud as they are designed to do. Nothing wrong there. This is normal in any engine with useage.
15.you also always want to inspect the ring lands when you do a tear down. This can show signs of detonation, etc. I would agree that most used cast pistons are junk after removing. However, if they were forgings, they could be used by someone else on a 421 build as it has the same stroke and pin height but, a slightly smaller bore.
16. You need to visably inspect the oil galleys that feed the lifters before any assembly. it is easy for crud to hide in there even after a thorough cleaning.
17. Align honing is rarely needed on a stock build. It does produce good profits for the machine shop but very rarely needed. Again, while doing a tear down, inspect for unusual main bearing wear and on the crank journals too. You could have saved some money there.
18. I would never have the machine shop put the oil plugs in the motor. that is the engine builders job and responsibility. That way you know for sure.
19. you do not mention or pay attention to what the machinst does in the rear main seal area.

What did he do there? That is not normally a place that needs attention. Are you referring to the align hone?

20. when inspecting the machine shops work on the piston/rod assemblies, look close inside the piston in the pin area for dirt. It easily collects there and is about impossible to remove. Also make sure the pins are properly lubed or you will be in serious trouble.
next, I like to use several plastic garbage bags to keep piston/rod assemblies, cranks, etc so they stay clean. it is a cheap way and works good.
21. always test fit the dip stick before final installation of the pan. If an a/c equipped car, be sure to include the extension in the test. This way you fill not be fighting your dip stick like others do.
22. You are always gambling when you have a shop assemble your heads. did they remember to install the o rings? how about installed height and tension? I like to assemble my own heads to make sure they are as i want them.

23. I agree with Cliff ( post #19 ), it is a smart idea to leave the valley off while setting the valves.

Steve
Hosting-
Thur-Sun April 8-11, 2010 12th annual Pontiac Heaven Phoenix www.pontiacheaven.org
Sunday April 11, 2010 8th annual Nostalgic Show & Go! Phoenix www.nostalgicshowandgo.org

[Red Coupe]

Originally Posted by Steve Barcak

Here are some more things I noticed and wish to contribute here.

12.On your teardown pics and your comments. Just because there are some scratches on the skirts does not mean boring is required. Maybe, maybe not.

13. I see nothing about rear main installation? This is among the most important parts of assembly and youo pass over it. Curious as to why you would omit such an important part. I do not see where you even mention what type of seal you used? ??? There is the myth that all Pontiacs leak.

14. Your pic of the bearing show the dirt in them only shows they bearings did their job and contained the crud as they are designed to do. Nothing wrong there. This is normal in any engine with useage.
15.you also always want to inspect the ring lands when you do a tear down. This can show signs of detonation, etc. I would agree that most used cast pistons are junk after removing. However, if they were forgings, they could be used by someone else on a 421 build as it has the same stroke and pin height but, a slightly smaller bore.
16. You need to visably inspect the oil galleys that feed the lifters before any assembly. it is easy for crud to hide in there even after a thorough cleaning.
17. Align honing is rarely needed on a stock build. It does produce good profits for the machine shop but very rarely needed. Again, while doing a tear down, inspect for unusual main bearing wear and on the crank journals too. You could have saved some money there.
18. I would never have the machine shop put the oil plugs in the motor. that is the engine builders job and responsibility. That way you know for sure.
19. you do not mention or pay attention to what the machinst does in the rear main seal area.

What did he do there? That is not normally a place that needs attention. Are you referring to the align hone?

20. when inspecting the machine shops work on the piston/rod assemblies, look close inside the piston in the pin area for dirt. It easily collects there and is about impossible to remove. Also make sure the pins are properly lubed or you will be in serious trouble.
next, I like to use several plastic garbage bags to keep piston/rod assemblies, cranks, etc so they stay clean. it is a cheap way and works good.
21. always test fit the dip stick before final installation of the pan. If an a/c equipped car, be sure to include the extension in the test. This way you fill not be fighting your dip stick like others do.
22. You are always gambling when you have a shop assemble your heads. did they remember to install the o rings? how about installed height and tension? I like to assemble my own heads to make sure they are as i want them.

23. I agree with Cliff ( post #19 ), it is a smart idea to leave the valley off while setting the valves.

Steve
Hosting-
Thur-Sun April 8-11, 2010 12th annual Pontiac Heaven Phoenix www.pontiacheaven.org
Sunday April 11, 2010 8th annual Nostalgic Show & Go! Phoenix www.nostalgicshowandgo.org

Steve --

Another bunch of excellent observations. Some of the rebuilt procedures are missing simply because I didn't take photos during the process. What example is the rear Main. As you point out this is critical to the avoidance of leaks. We used the BOP seal.

[Red Coupe]

Originally Posted by Steve Barcak

I may have missed some things you wrote but, I see many things over looked pertaining specifically to a Pontiac build.
in no order-
1. you did not mention how important it is to remember to install the rear oil galley plug that hides next to the distributor. A first time Pontiac builder would easily overlook this.
2. you did not mention the importance of installing the dip stick tube prior to assembly. Perhaps, it was never removed but, many shops and builders remove them during the cleaning process. I do not know how many people over the years have told me they forgot this after they installed the pan.
3. Before installing the oil pump, I like to install the distributor so the drive shaft doesn't move around while you are turning the block over while on the stand.
4.I like to check to make sure the cam bearings are installed properly before I start assembly. that is done by looking up the main oil feed holes to see if the hole in the bearing is in the right place.
5. next, I always do a test fit of the cam prior to any assembly incase a cam bearing was put in at an angle.
6. it is easy for a novice to forget to install the small expansion plug on the back side next to the dist.
7. In the picture of the guy putting in a piston. I find it wise to use one hand to hold the ring compressor tight against the deck of the block. Otherwise, it is easy for a ring to pop out if the tool does not stay flat. It is important not to chip a ring.
8. You did not add the important cooling holes in the deck
9. did you check piston to wall clearance? I would never consider assembling an engine with aftermarket pistons and not do that. In adequate piston to wall can lead to overheating and black death.

10. I know different people like to do things different. I see nothing wrong with the way you check for valve clearance but, it is much easier, faster and less messy to not use the clay. With light duty helper springs, you can simply push down on the end of the rocker arm and feel how much room there is as you rotate the engine.

11. also, when installing pistons/rods, the bearing has a chamfer on one side. That is the side that goes toward the outside of the jounal. Also, the bevels/grooves on the rods always match the caps when installing.
Best you with your build.
Steve

Steve, the advice of more expereinced builders than I is what's going to really make this thread. Great information!

To your point .2, the machine shop installed the dip stick in the block

To your .4, we used a cigar and some flexible tubing to blow smoke all through the oil passages. This way we could observe and know for sure that all the passages that were supposed to move oil did move oil, and that the oil holes in the bearings were properly aligned.

[arrowem]

I needed this! Best.....thread...ever...

[Need For Speed]

Originally Posted by Steve Barcak

8. You did not add the important cooling holes in the deck

Can you elaborate on this, pics, how to, etc? I used the search feature and didn't find anything.

Anything I can do to keep the Poncho running cool, I'm down for it.

Thanks, Gary

[Schurkey]

Originally Posted by Need For Speed

Can you elaborate on this, pics, how to, etc? I used the search feature and didn't find anything.

Anything I can do to keep the Poncho running cool, I'm down for it.

Thanks, Gary

My thanks to Steve Barcak for previous photos posted elsewhere on this site; I used his cooling suggestions when I built the engine for my Father-In-Law's Firebird. Photo from FIL's engine:



From what I could see through the coolant passage holes in the heads I used, drilling the extra hole in the block deck and head casting was a waste of time. The cylinder head coolant passage where I drilled the hole was already getting water from other, nearby holes. Perhaps not all heads are cast like that, though.

[Red Coupe]

Originally Posted by madokie

could you cover all the oil gallery plugs and freeze plugs also .i feel thats one area of info tech that is lacking , for most pontiac owners , myself included.thanks

madokie, the information you're looking for regarding oil gallery plugs can be found on pages 24 and 25 of Jim Hand's excellent book "How to build Max-Performance Pontiac V-8's."

I'll also mention that you can look down the distributor hole with a flexible light to check and see if the rear plug is in place.

I found the Box Wrench, DVDs to be a good source of information and how to remove and install freeze plugs. Not plugging any particular source of information, but these were helpful to me.

[Rocky 389]

"The only things unaccounted for were the oil pump bolts, but after a quick trip to the hardware store we were back in business."
I did exactly the same thing with a fresh 1960, 389. Except I already had some grade 8 bolts on hand. It ended with distaster! About the 4th time I started the engine on a cool [40 degree] morning the oil presure went away completely. I pulled the pan to find the oil pump [melling] sitting in the bottom of the pan. The brittle grade 8 bolts had broken. I put it back together with good grade 5 bolts and never had any further problems.

[SRR]

Not trying to be critical but does your camera suck or is your shop just dark? I don't know if I'm just getting old or what but I need tons of light when I work.
That trick with the BBC studs is something I do on every Pontiac engine I do because if you surfaced the heads or decked the block or did a valve job that adjustment of bottoming the nut are long gone. It's cheap also!
Your thread still rocks BTW! Please keep posting!

[Red Coupe]

Originally Posted by SRR

Not trying to be critical but does your camera suck or is your shop just dark? I don't know if I'm just getting old or what but I need tons of light when I work.
That trick with the BBC studs is something I do on every Pontiac engine I do because if you surfaced the heads or decked the block or did a valve job that adjustment of bottoming the nut are long gone. It's cheap also!
Your thread still rocks BTW! Please keep posting!

Camera's an old Sony that has seen better days. I know what you're saying about more light....

Glad you like the thread, more to come!

[77 TRASHCAN]

#24 (Steve's list) Carefully inspect the lifter bores!!!
Not only inspecting them, making sure that the old lifters were pushed out the bottom!!!
After the block comes back from the machine shop, and oil passages have been cleaned, insert a new lifter in each bore, make sure it spins freely and moves up and down freely!!!
You can accidently bump the top or bottom of the lifter bore and distort that top or bottom edge. NOW would be the time to address any lifter bore problems if you have.

BEFORE you install the pushrods, pre-oil the engine, spinning the crank, making sure that oil is coming out of each lifter, if not, NOW is the time to check or replace a lifter.
I'd hate to start the engine with one dead lifter that won't oil..........
Oh yeah, is there moly paste on the cam lobes and lifter faces???


My comments are not meant to be critical of this process. If we are going to write a book here I don't want a rookie subscriber to miss ANY thing.

Thanks for all the contributions!!!
Jeff

[b-man]

This is such a well-thought out and nicely presented tech thread that it deserves a 'sticky'.

Thank you for your fine contribution to the PY Street forum.

[Red Coupe]

My machinist recommended that I work with Lenny Caverly to break in my new motor. Some of you may have heard of Len as a person who has competed nationally in engine building competitions. His specialty is Pontiacs, so he was the perfect person to help me bring the new motor to life. Best of all, he lives 30 minutes from my house. In this photo Lenny and his son are preparing the dyno to receive the motor.




Here's the motor mounted on the dyno. Installing Pontiac headers is never easy, even when there’s lots of room.


I mentioned earlier that I used the factory 068 cam for this rebuild. Melling still manufactures this original grind. Melling recommended the use of Rotella T for break-in oil, so that's what I used. I also added a small container of ZDDP just to make sure there was enough zinc phosphate present in the oil to protect the cam lobes and tappets during break-in.





Proper ignition timing is absolutely critical to getting the motor to start on the first turn of the key. In this photo Lenny's double checking to make sure Karl and I had set the timing correctly.





Here is the motor bolted to the dyno. The exhaust is hooked up, the gas supply is rigged, the wiring is complete, and Len installed a temporary belt to run the water pump. Everything had been checked and double checked, so this was the big moment. After 18 months of effort, would this motor run?


Len hit the key, and the motor started right up. It was a pretty exciting moment. Hard to tell from the photo, but you can see the belt is in motion.


An unbreakable rule for breaking in flat tappet cams - once started, the motor must stay over 2000 rpm for 20 minutes. The reason for the higher rpm is to ensure that enough oil splashes on the cam lobes during beak-in. If necessary, it is permissible to shut off and restart a motor during the break-in period. Just don’t let it idle. If I had retrofitted the motor with a roller cam, an extended break-in period wouldn’t have been necessary.


Every motor breaks in a little bit different. This one wanted to slowly overheat. When the temperature approached two hundred degrees, Len would shut it down. In our case, we shut the motor down three times to allow it to cool off before hitting the 20 minute mark.


One other small problem. There was a pretty good tap coming from under the driver's side valve cover near the number 5 and 7 cylinders. It wasn't bad enough to make us want to stop the break-in, but it was loud enough to let us know that something wasn’t right.





We hoped that the tapping would go away by itself early in the break-in, but it didn't. As you can see by this photo, we weren't too happy about what we were hearing.


Len thought it sounded as though one of the valves didn’t have insufficient pre-load, so during one of the cool down periods we pulled the valve cover and checked. Sure enough, I had not put the proper pre-load on one of the exhaust valves. Once this was fixed, the motor sounded awesome.




When Karl and I installed the shim on the exhaust port we used a piece of thin aluminum stock. Too thin, it turned out, so we needed to pull the intake and install a thicker stainless steel shim.




Once we had fixed the inevitable little problems. It was time to load the motor and try some preliminary pulls.





Here is a shot of the dyno screen. Don't look at the gauges on the left side. The digital display on the left allowed Len to track water temperature, oil pressure, air/fuel ratio, torque, and calculated horsepower.

After several pulls, the water temperature stabilized at about 175 degrees.





Here’s the results of one of the final dyno pulls. Max power (360) occurred at a street-friendly 4500 rpm and max torque (450) occurred at 3800 rpm. For a mild street motor the torque curve was respectable, with nearly 450 foot pounds by 2800rpm and staying over the 400 foot pound mark to 4600 rpm. You may notice that the motor was running lean on this pull. We wouldn’t have known about this lean condition had I just stuck the motor in the car.


Although Len certainly had the skills and equipment to get every last bit of performance from this motor, I was satisfied with a mild tune and knowing that the motor would start and run uneventfully when installed in the car.

[Jeff Walker]

A good and and informative thread. That engine should make your car a pretty fun ride.

BTW, that carb on there looks kind of familiar.

[Red Coupe]

Originally Posted by Jeff Walker

A good and and informative thread. That engine should make your car a pretty fun ride.

BTW, that carb on there looks kind of familiar.

It ought to since you built it