[T A 70]

Originally Posted by Region Warrior

Dead perps cant sue let alone lie.

But their families can and usually will

[drummer]

GTORIC

The right to bear arms which is given in the Constitution is not infringed because states require "concealed permits". The permits only grant the ability to carry a firearm concealed it has nothing to do with any right to own or carry "openly" a firearm. These permits are issued to insure that convicted felons and other criminals who choose to carry concealed firearms can be prosecuted in the courts. I am all for citizens carrying concealed weapons to protect themselves or others, but I dont want the local crackhead to be able to and if he does I want law enforcement to have laws in place to aide them in removing them from the streets. The supreme court recently struck down Washington DC's ban on handguns and I agree with the decision, but to compare handgun bans to concealed permits isn't fair.

20 years law enforcement veteran

[gtoric]

Originally Posted by drummer

GTORIC

The right to bear arms which is given in the Constitution is not infringed because states require "concealed permits". The permits only grant the ability to carry a firearm concealed it has nothing to do with any right to own or carry "openly" a firearm.

The right to carry a concealed weapon is infringed or controlled, and the Constitution does not differentiate between the concealed or exposed state of carrying. It merely grants the citizenship the right to keep (possess) and bear (carry on their person) without infringement (restriction). By requiring a permit for concealment, is that not an act of infringement by restricting how we can bear those arms? Isn't this an act simply and succinctly forbidden by the Constitution? It's the phrase,"...shall not be infringed...." with which I am having trouble coming to grips.

I realize that there have been several reasons put forth in favor of issuing conceal-to-carry permits. I previously gave the slightly paranoiac "government can keep track of those who own weapons in order to make it easier to confiscate those same weapons in time of insurrection" reason (National Socialist Germany during the mid-to-late 1930s comes readily to mind here). It has also been stated that this is a revenue-generator for local and State governments; no doubt. Actually, those first two reasons make a good argument for regular gun registration as well. Also, by making it illegal to carry a concealed weapon without a properly issued permit, this now becomes a controlling tool used by law enforcement to arrest, then by the judicial system to convict otherwise law-abiding citizens of a minor wrongdoing. An unintended consequence of prosecuting this otherwise victimless crime on its own is to clog our already overtaxed court systems with additional burdens and expenses. One other positive point, however; the requirement to participate in a gun safety course as part of obtaining a permit can not be faulted.

These permits are issued to insure that convicted felons and other criminals who choose to carry concealed firearms can be prosecuted in the courts.

In the case of an accused criminal's possession of a concealed weapon during the commission of a crime, a failure to produce a legal conceal permit would certainly serve to reinforce the prosecution and extend the conviction of any confluent crime. Sort of like icing on the cake, or an added insurance policy in order to obtain the conviction. Though I'm still not convinced of the constitutionality of this concealment restriction.

I was under the impression that the right to keep and bear arms was surrendered by convicted felons, who then were not allowed to be in legal possession of or carry any firearms, concealed or open. Additionally, can convicted felons legally be issued "conceal-to-carry" permits since their right to bear arms was rendered void by their conviction? Seems to me that the successful prosecution of a crime would be pretty much assured by the fact that a felon had used a weapon during the commission in the first place. Or, has our liberal criminal law system muddied-up that issue as well? I'm probably way naive in the methods of criminal prosecution and its nuanced conduct.

Making the possession of a concealed weapon without a permit illegal seems to me to be a tool of regulation aimed primarily at controlling the law-abiding citizenry, who by definition need not be regulated in this manner when not committing an infraction. However, when turning to crime, is the lawbreaker's reasoning significantly affected by having or not having a permit to carry? In other words, is having a permit to carry an effective crime deterrent? Laws only act as deterrents to law-abiding citizens. Professional criminals scoff at laws and only consider the consequences when caught. Maybe the conceal laws are not meant to prevent crimes.

How is it determined if an unlawful act was committed by an accused person using a concealed weapon? Isn't a weapon used in that act almost always unconcealed, at least in the commission of the act? How does law enforcement prove that a weapon was ever concealed prior to the act itself? If a perpetrator walks into a bank with his weapon already drawn and unconcealed, what good is a permit to conceal? Conceal-to-carry permits do not make us any safer from law-abiding citizens, because they do not use the concealment factor as an aid to commit crimes, and criminals don't care about permits because it's their mentality that they will not get caught in the first place.

I'm curious, what legally constitutes a concealed weapon? What are the various States' rulings concerning the display of a carried weapon? Can you duct-tape a .22 to your forehead, and not be prosecuted for unlawful possession? Does carrying a pistol in your hand, in open display, violate any laws? A drawn gun seems to me to portend bad things happening in the immediate future. Does the act of drawing a gun without cause in public result in prosecution? I'm guessing that there have been many rulings dictating exactly how a weapon is to be carried/displayed in public. Would these rulings be considered unconstitutional infringements as well? I would guess that since the person is allowed to legally bear that arm up to the point of overt brandishment, establishing laws governing how the weapon is to be controlled are constitutional and prudent on a state-by state basis.

I am all for citizens carrying concealed weapons to protect themselves or others, but I dont want the local crackhead to be able to and if he does I want law enforcement to have laws in place to aide them in removing them from the streets.

Isn't the local crackhead granted constitutional rights to bear arms? As long as he/she is a legal citizen, isn't a convicted felon, and isn't caught in the act of committing a crime that is. Restricting such a person from bearing a weapon before the fact is not possible. I don't like the fact that an unstable, desperate, and most likely under certain conditions, dangerous individual can legally own and carry a firearm, but how can the law constitutionally restrict such an individual? This sounds like an ACLU issue. It would not surprise me to learn that the Supreme Court has already ruled on this issue and has upheld the constitutionality of conceal-to-carry permits. In which case, all of my arguments and conclusions here are just so much hot air.

The supreme court recently struck down Washington DC's ban on handguns and I agree with the decision, but to compare handgun bans to concealed permits isn't fair.

20 years law enforcement veteran

Perhaps comparing banning handguns and requiring permits to carry concealed is not fair, but in the end aren't both controlling measures, therefore aren't both conditions infringements of the Second Amendment? That's all I meant to convey.

What is the purpose of concealing a firearm? Is it to mask the fact that a person is in possession of a weapon? Or is it merely an act of convenience of transportation, as in a purse, a pocket, or on a shoulder holster?

In any event, the act of concealment removes the very powerful psychological advantage of letting the bad guys know that you are in control of the equalizing weapon. As Maj. Caudill so eloquently put it, I'd rather be persuaded by argument than by force. Possessing a sidearm, concealed or not, takes force out of the equation.

Drummer, I respect the special dedication and conviction that it takes to select police work as a profession. I also recognize the constant risk of personal danger that must be confronted once on the job. I have relatives and friends who serve the community as police officers, and I can't imagine the pressures you face daily. I thank God that you and your brothers and sisters in law enforcement are on the job and willing to serve. Law enforcement is not responsible for creating law, only enforcing the laws. I want it to be clear that I am questioning the law makers and the judicial system here, not the police. If we don't get a firm grip on the direction in which the progressive movement is taking this country, we may lose all of our constitutional rights in the blink of an eye, and then not realize how it happened so fast. And if I don't air my concerns, I would be shirking my responsibilities as a citizen of this great country. Don't take these queries and statements in the wrong light. I'm just trying to get people to think about our condition, and the right to bear and keep arms is at the center of our continued existence as a free peoples.

Thank you for your service.

[Region Warrior]

Unless its questionable, wouldnt go far in Indiana court. "If at all".

[David Jones]

In my business there are times when I feel better armed.
I have a permit and a 40cal Steyr.

[My442]

I figured I would get bashed for what I said, but, in my 50+ years of traveling all over the USA and the world, I have not yet come into a situation that required me to be armed.

I was a long time FFL holder, hunter, shooter, and I still like guns.....but not to carry on a daily basis.

For all of you who do, good luck.

[T A 70]

That's cool, a bunch of good reasons to carry and not to carry IMO.

[Region Warrior]

Never had to reveal mine in 28 yrs.
Thought may have to a few times to protect other people in public though.
Never know when some crazy is gon'a flip a lid for no reason at Micky D's, Walmart, gas station, at an intersection, etc.
Theres ALOT of wack jobs around here.

[73FIREBIRD]

Carry every day for 10 plus years. One of the men that used to work at the shop that I do Just went off 2 days ago & shot two women at a school. You never know

[foxwolf321]

its threads like this that make me glad i live in Canada, where guns are not as prevalent in day to day activities. Too many mistakes can be made in a high pressure situation. If the criminal gets the 20 bucks in my wallet, who cares? His judgment day will come.

[johnsma22]

Originally Posted by foxwolf321

If the criminal gets the 20 bucks in my wallet, who cares? His judgment day will come.

Let me re-write this for you and let you think about it. "If the criminal slashes my wife's throat while I watch and she dies, who cares? His judgment day will come." That's what I was faced with and I'm glad I didn't carry a knife that night!

That's the difference between idealism and reality. Maybe in Canada you have the luxury to be idealistic, but I've seen first hand that I need to be grounded in the reality that man, apart from God, is inherently evil and I WILL protect my family from the inherently evil, with deadly force if necessary.

[Cobrabill]

Originally Posted by foxwolf321

its threads like this that make me glad i live in Canada, where guns are not as prevalent in day to day activities. Too many mistakes can be made in a high pressure situation. If the criminal gets the 20 bucks in my wallet, who cares? His judgment day will come.

What planet do you live on?If you ascertion was correct there would be shootings daily(not counting criminals as you did)there aren't.

If you are NOT prepared to defend your family with deadly force-YOU HAVE ALREADY FAILED.

[lust4speed]

Originally Posted by foxwolf321

its threads like this that make me glad i live in Canada, where guns are not as prevalent in day to day activities. Too many mistakes can be made in a high pressure situation. If the criminal gets the 20 bucks in my wallet, who cares? His judgment day will come.

Don't you realize that IT COULD BE YOUR JUDGMENT DAY? Possibly after witnessing your wife being raped and killed before you die.

[foxwolf321]

Originally Posted by lust4speed

Don't you realize that IT COULD BE YOUR JUDGMENT DAY? Possibly after witnessing your wife being raped and killed before you die.

This is true, and in this case would me having a gun have helped me in this situation? Perhaps, perhaps it helped lead to this situation?

My reasoning is that if the criminal has a gun, knife or whatever and is holding me (my family) up, then he feels in control of the situation and can ask for whatever he wants. More often then not this is going to be money, jewelry, valuables, my car whatever. I will gladly hand it over to him because they are material goods and these are replaceable.

Now, if i draw my gun, well, now, he is not in full control of the situation, BUT NEITHER AM I. I might still get shot and my wife stabbed and raped. Hell I might have just raised my chances of being shot, then what good am I to my family? I don't have anything more then a passing familiarization with criminals and the way they think. But from what i understand they usually want quick easy cash, not my life or even to physically hurt me as a rule. Some people are nuts and again, will me being armed as well as they scare them off or make them do something rash? Or make me do something rash? I do not begrudge anyone the right to defend themselves how they see fit, i choose a passive resistance. Call me a idiot if you choose, but i will not risk killing someone to save myself when another option may exist. Does that mean i am going to lay down and take it if my life or someone elses is in danger? no, of course not.

I should make note, I do not have a wife, i do not have children so maybe my thinking will change with a change in my circumstances, who knows. But at the moment i think possessing a gun will do myself more harm then it will save me from.

[Brian Baker]

Originally Posted by foxwolf321

This is true, and in this case would me having a gun have helped me in this situation? Perhaps, perhaps it helped lead to this situation?

My reasoning is that if the criminal has a gun, knife or whatever and is holding me (my family) up, then he feels in control of the situation and can ask for whatever he wants. More often then not this is going to be money, jewelry, valuables, my car whatever. I will gladly hand it over to him because they are material goods and these are replaceable.

Now, if i draw my gun, well, now, he is not in full control of the situation, BUT NEITHER AM I. I might still get shot and my wife stabbed and raped. Hell I might have just raised my chances of being shot, then what good am I to my family? I don't have anything more then a passing familiarization with criminals and the way they think. But from what i understand they usually want quick easy cash, not my life or even to physically hurt me as a rule. Some people are nuts and again, will me being armed as well as they scare them off or make them do something rash? Or make me do something rash? I do not begrudge anyone the right to defend themselves how they see fit, i choose a passive resistance. Call me a idiot if you choose, but i will not risk killing someone to save myself when another option may exist. Does that mean i am going to lay down and take it if my life or someone elses is in danger? no, of course not.

I should make note, I do not have a wife, i do not have children so maybe my thinking will change with a change in my circumstances, who knows. But at the moment i think possessing a gun will do myself more harm then it will save me from.

Your logic and reasoning befuddles me. You have no idea what the criminals true intent is. Yes, the criminals intent may only be to take your property, but it may be more. Unless you're a mind reader, you simply cannot know.

"Passive resistance" is an oxymoron. Firearms, since their invention, have and always will be the best equalizer when it comes to self defense. If you're willing to relinquish control of your personal safety and life to a criminal, you should probably just take your own life right now...if you don't value the life God gave you enough to preserve it by any means possible when confronted with unprovoked harm, just end it and get off the planet now...this place is crowded enough as it is.

[tempest455]

Because I can!

In TN it's carry however you want, open or concealed.

[Captain Kirk]

I have had a pistol permit for over 40 years and during that timeframe, I have only pulled it three times and discharged it once. I do not carry it daily and only do when I feel that where I am going I may need to carry it. I truly believe that it saved my life on the four occasions mentioned above. I have always been an avid shooter at the range and in competition. Through military training and police/citizen training, I know when and when not to even display it. Through no fault of my own, I was shot outside my apartment in New Orleans by a would be mugger in the chest. I discarged my weapon one time and saved my and my girlfriends life. The force was not deadly and the mugger survived a left center mass hit via a 9mm.
I still suffer from post traumatic syndrome from being shot.

" Beware of the man who owns only one handgun. He know how to use it".

PS I did not marry that girlfriend, but we still stay in touch after these past 37 years, and still contends that she owes her life to me.

[JackF]

Captain Kirk,

Welcome aboard and glad you and your girlfriend survived. I have been carrying for 30 years and have never needed to use or display my weapon and if I never use or display it that will be great but if I ever need to I will be prepared.

Jack.

[1-GTO]

I took the CCW Classes and still have to run through the final preperations/paper work to get my permit...I can tell You when You take the Classes they do go over the "Rights" You have and the rights of other individuals and You had better be protecting your Life from danger and not wanting to carry a gun because it is the "In Thing" or cool.You can be Sued by a Family for killing someone its a big responsibilty and can be very traumatic.You will also have to get a new Drivers License showing You have a CCW permit so if You get pulled over by an Officer be prepared to be asked if your carrying a Gun.You also don't want to be out drinking and driving because you could loose your permit.


I choose to get the permit because I may travel or come home late at night and want to be able to carry a hand gun,or if I go Camping away from home I can take my gun with me and keep it in my Camper or carry it with me.With a CCW license I can also store my gun out of sight in my vehicle,locked up so no one else can get to it or a younger Family member.Another thing to consider when traveling through different States is you could be breaking their Laws by having a loaded gun,some States require that You have a gun stored away in one area or in a locked case away from the ammunition...this really makes a lot of sense but its the Law?


Either way I would rather have a permit to carry a gun and not need it...than to be out and get in a situation and not have it with me.

[INJUNTOM]

As a business owner in an industrial area that's close to some bad neighborhoods, I'm going to get one.

Already have a gun at my shop, and have it close by when I work late at night. Haven't had to come down for an alarm call in the middle of the night yet, but i'm sure there will be a day that i will.

I have had a few occasions where people in the neighborhood made me a little nervous. I got the gun for the shop after the first occasion.

I've had a couple vicious dog incidences on my property (I live in a country neighborhood on 3/4 acre), and do fear home invasions being a business owner.

I've since gotten another gun for my home shop, have one on my headboard, one in the room where my computer is located, a Glock .40 is in my kitchen cabinet not far from the door out of the house, and lastly, I picked up a .22 Mag revolver for my wife to learn to shoot.

I still want to get another Glock to replace the .357 S&W on my headboard with something with more rounds, and maybe a shotgun.