[John V.]

Eric, I can say that Fremont was Code F in '64 with confidence based on my own '64 GTO built at Fremont, Plant Code F in the VIN.

Pontiac started all Plant VINs from 1001 in '64. Leading 0s were added to form a 6 digit VIN sequence no. on the paperwork (leading 0s were not embossed on the VIN tag itself), so 1001 is also 001001. At Fremont they ran up to about F040000.

Olds also used the virtually identical VIN format as Pontiac in '64. Since the Cutlass series was also built at Fremont, the way they were assured of keeping them from having two cars with identical VINs, Olds started their VIN sequence no. at 100001.

So it was possible to have a Lemans with VIN 824F012345 as well as a Cutlass with VIN 824F102345. Very, very similar but never identical.

Same was the case for the Kansas City, Missouri Plant that built the Tempest series alongside the Chevelles. Since the Plant Code was M, you had the possibility of identical VINs with Cutlasses built at Lansing.

This was avoided again by the fact Pontiac VINs started from M001001 and ran to about M030000 while Lansing VINs started from M100001.

Can't say how confusing this was for GM to have 2 Plants with the same Plant Code. But keep in mind that at this time, the Final Assembly Plants were under the autonomous control of either Chevrolet Div. or the B-O-P Div. In other words, the Car Divisions controlled the Final Plants and Chevrolet could have a Plant Code A and the B-O-P Div. could have a Plant Code A (and both did).

When GMAD was created in '65, Chevrolet & B-O-P final Plants were united under this one umbrella and that is why the new Plant codes had to be assigned to eliminate the duplication. Prior to that, it does not seem to have mattered since there were plenty of duplicated Plant Codes between the two Car Assembly Divs (Chevy & B-O-P). From what I can tell, Cadillac may have remained outside of GMAD at that time and continued to autonomously control their own final assembly Plant(s).

All the while, Fisher Body remained an independent GM Div. Fisher Body workers were organized under different union locals from the guys in the Final Plants. The formation of GMAD only affected the Final Plant organization at first, Fisher Body continued under Fisher Body management.

That did not change until GM Corp. made the announcement in '68. The rationale was to streamline production. Up til then, both Fisher & the Final Plants operated their own Paint Shops for example, Fisher painted the Body Assembly, the Final Plant painted the front end sheetmetal. I suspect that having to negotiate contracts with two separate union locals was also considered a nuisance since a strike by one would idle the entire operation.

Can't offer an explanation for the changing Data Plate formats but the '65 creation of GMAD out of the Chevy and B-O-P assembly operations did not affect the Fisher Body Div. at all from what I have seen.

Clark St. was the Cadillac Final Assembly Plant from what I can tell from the time it was built in 1921 until the Hamtramck Plant was built in the '80s. I believe all Cadillacs were assembled at this Plant until '71.

Fisher Body did not have a Body Assembly Plant at the Clark St. complex. Instead, I believe Cadillac bodies were assembled at what I think was known as the Fisher Body Fleetwood Plant, some distance away from the Clark St. Plant in Detroit. Located in Delray at the corner of Fort & West End according to references I've found. Also called Fisher Body Plant #18. The completed bodies were moved by truck across town.

It was known as the "Fleetwood" Plant because Fisher Body had decades before acquired the competing Fleetwood Body operation and eventually moved it to this Detroit location. However, despite the fact that Cadillac had a Fleetwood model, the Body Plant cranked out all Cadillac models. There were probably exceptions. As for example, the Eldo bodies that you show being produced at Euclid.

Now, looking back at your Chart, the Clark St. Plant seems to be one and the same as what you show as the Mack Ave. Plant.

From a Cadillac VIN decoder, Cadillac began putting a Plant Code in their VIN in '71 (presumably it was not necessary prior to that).

If I read it right, starting in '71, Sedan DeVille Hardtop and Coupe DeVille production was shifted to Linden (Plant Code E). All others remained at Clark St. and were coded for Plant Code Q.

I looked all around. The Clark St. Plant was located at 2860 Clark St. and known at that address until it was closed and demolished by everything I can find.

I cannot find any reference to a Cadillac or GM Assembly Plant on Mack Ave. I don't know Detroit, but it does not look like Clark St. crosses Mack Ave. today, although possibly before new highway construction, maybe it did. But what I do find, suggests that Mack Ave. turned into Myrtle Ave. as it went west and Myrtle later was renamed MLK Blvd. west of the John C. Lodge Freeway at some point. This road runs out to about West Grand Blvd. where it ends. Meanwhile, Clark St. currently appears to terminate just east of Michigan Ave. (US 12) and just to the southwest of where MLK hits W. Grand. If Mack Ave. ever ran all the way out to Clark St., I can't find evidence of it. And nowhere do I see any reference to the Clark St. Plant being referred to as the Mack Ave. Plant.

Yet, everything else about the dates and such that you show as Mack Ave. matches to info about Clark St., including the identification of the associated but separately located Fisher Body Plant as Code FW, undoubtedly to mean Fleetwood and located at Fort & West End, a few miles to the SW of the Clark St. Plant and just off what is now I-75 (Fisher Freeway).

Curious how you found it to be named Mack Ave. I think it should be identified as Clark St.

Hope this helps.

[gtoric]

Originally Posted by John V.

Eric, I can say that Fremont was Code F in '64 with confidence based on my own '64 GTO built at Fremont, Plant Code F in the VIN.

John, with additional research, I have found that Chevrolet used H in 1964 for the Fremont operation, and B-O-P used F. This may indicate that the Chevrolet line was a line separate from the B-O-P line, I do not know.

Same was the case for the Kansas City, Missouri Plant that built the Tempest series alongside the Chevelles. Since the Plant Code was M, you had the possibility of identical VINs with Cutlasses built at Lansing.

Again, Chevrolet used a different code for the Kansas City, MO plant in '64. It was KC for the Chev line and M for the B-O-P line. Also for 1965, the V.I.N. format changed to include the manufacturer's number identifier, the three letter Fisher Body code was adopted, and each maker had its own series of numbers in each plant. The confusion was reduced a little.

Curious how you found it to be named Mack Ave. I think it should be identified as Clark St.

My bad, Mack Ave. is a Chrysler operation plant. I will change my chart to read Clark St.

[John V.]

Eric, I also have checked, and you are correct, Chevy identified Fremont as Plant Code H in '64 according to Chevelle VINs. I don't know for sure, but I think the Chevelles were built on the same line as the B-O-Ps.

I think if you check however, the Kansas City, Missouri Final Plant was identified as Plant Code K by Chevy in '64.

KC was the Plant Code for the Fisher Body Plant at Kansas City, Missouri.

The B-O-P Kansas City, Kansas was not used to build any Chevy to my knowledge. The Final Plant was Plant Code K in '64, then became Plant Code X in '65 under GMAD. This Plant did not ever apparently build any Chevy.

BK was the Plant Code for the Fisher Body Plant at Kansas City, Kansas.

So now it seems you need to identify the '64 B-O-P Plant Code and the '64 Chevy Plant Code for certain Plants and then the '65 up GMAD Plant Code. Fremont would be '64 B-O-P Code F, '64 Chevy Code H, and '65 GMAD Code Z.

But the Fremont Fisher Body Plant was Code BF for all until the Fisher Body Plant was integrated into GMAD. I'll take your word that this did not occur at Fremont until 1972.

Looking at the latest revisions to your Chart, I think you are confusing the Final Assembly Plant Codes with the Fisher Body Plant Codes. At least true of how you show them for Fremont.

Fisher Body-Fremont was known by Code BF on '64 B-O-P, '64 Chevy, as well as '65 up Data Plates.

It was the Final Assembly Plants that went under GMAD ownership first as the B-O-P Assembly Div. was dissolved in '65. That change caused the revision to the Final Plant Codes.

But it would be a few years more before GMAD began to gobble up the Fisher Body Plant operations and affect the Body Plant Codes.

Eric, a careful read of the article Keith posted in post 11 gives insight into the origins of GMAD that began as the B-O-P Assembly Div.

With the formation of GMAD in '65, it appears that GMAD retained the Final Plant Codes used by Chevy and then assigned a new code to any B-O-P Assembly Plant that was using a conflicting Code. The B-O-P Final Plants that required a revised Plant Code with the '65 formation of GMAD were:

Arlington '64 B-O-P Code A, '65 GMAD Code R since Chevy Code A was Atlanta (Lakewood)
Kansas City, Kansas '64 B-O-P Code K, '65 GMAD Code X since Chevy Code K was Kansas City, Missouri
Linden '64 B-O-P Code L, '65 GMAD Code E since Chevy Code L was for Los Angeles (same Van Nuys Plant that later built Firebirds)
South Gate '64 B-O-P Code S, '65 GMAD Code C since Chevy Code S was St. Louis, MO
Fremont '64 B-O-P Code F, '65 GMAD Code Z since Chevy Code F was Flint, Mich


Kansas City, Missouri was a Chevy Plant, the Code M used by Pontiac as the Plant Code here in '64 was simply abandoned in '65 and the original Chevy Plant Code K was used by GMAD as the identifer for this Final Plant.

The "home" Plants for Buick (Code H), Olds (Code M), and Pontiac (Code P) were retained in the GMAD structure.

The Plant Codes assigned to identify the Fisher Body Plants associated with the B-O-P Final Plants generally were prefixed with a "B" presumably to connect to B-O-P.

So for example, the Fisher Body Plant at the B-O-P Kansas City, Kansas complex was identified as Code BK.

This resulted in the somewhat curious circumstance where the Fisher Body Plant at the B-O-P Atlanta (Doraville) complex was identified as Code BA in '64 at the same time the Fisher Body Plant at the Chevy Final Plant in Baltimore was also identified as BA.

Another curiosity occurred at the Fisher Body Plant at Van Nuys during the '69 Model Year.

Your Chart shows that starting in '65, the Data Plate was coded LOS for this Fisher Body Plant.

That was true during the '69 Model Year for Camaros & Firebirds until mid Dec. '68 at which time the Data Plate Code reverted to VN. I am not sure what code appeared on other models, but on '70 Chevelle Data Plates built there, the Code shows BL.

Trying to sum up what I have been trying to point out, GMAD did not exist in '64.

Prior to '65, Final Plants were either Chevy Assembly Plants or B-O-P Assembly Plants.

Fisher Body Plants were independently managed by Fisher Body Div. at all locations until GM announced in '68 the beginning of the transition to unified assembly plants placing body assembly for the first time at some of the Plants under control of GMAD. Until this time, Fisher Body Plants were independent of Chevy or B-O-P Assembly ('64 and earlier) or GMAD ('65 and up).

The Codes identifying the Final Plants are the plant codes used for the VIN.

The Codes identifying the Body Plants are the plant codes found on the Body Data Plate.

The formation of GMAD in '65 took control of final assembly away from the Car Divs. for the first time.

It is somewhat unclear if the Car Divs. continued to control final assembly at their respective "home" Plants of if GMAD took control of these Plants as well in '65. As such, it is unclear whether Cadillac Motor Div. retained control of their Clark St. Plant and controlled assembly of all Cadillacs until the DeVille model production was shifted to Linden in '71. The Clark St. Final Plant may also have been placed under GMAD control but the Fisher Body Plant that produced the body assemblies for that Final Plant seems to have remained independent of GMAD for many years after the Fisher Body operations had been dissolved and integrated with GMAD at other assembly plants.

[gtoric]

John, I think I'm getting close. Check the latest revisions and let me know.

[fiedlerh]

I finally scanned an posted the GM VIN book to my website. It covers 1972-1987.
Doesn't exactly say what was built where, but it's good basic reference.

www.pontiacpower.org/gmvin.htm

Be patient. The pdf files are around 4MB and some are still hard to read due to the printing quality of the original booklet.

[relmers]

I came upon a photo of a '66 GTO coming off the assembly line http://www.highperformancepontiac.co.../photo_03.html and the description says it was at Plant 16, Line 55. Does anyone know what plant # 16 would have been or is this picture mislabeled?


I'm heading out to the 2010 Woodward Dream Cruise on Tuesday, driving my '66 GTO there.

[Keith Seymore]

Originally Posted by relmers

I came upon a photo of a '66 GTO coming off the assembly line http://www.highperformancepontiac.co.../photo_03.html and the description says it was at Plant 16, Line 55. Does anyone know what plant # 16 would have been or is this picture mislabeled?


I'm heading out to the 2010 Woodward Dream Cruise on Tuesday, driving my '66 GTO there.

The caption is correct, as plant 16 was the Final Finish plant (I believe pinstriping was done there, for example); vehicles were shipped there after Plant 8 (the final assembly location). You might already know there were roughly 10 or 15 separate buildings, all co-located on the same property, each having a specific plant designation (this is fairly typical among the manufacturers here in Michigan).

However, I believe they misintrepted the number "55" - that was not "Line 55", but the build manifest sequence number for that specific car on the line. It was "Car number 55" on that build manifest, a (sort of) random start point but the numbers increasing sequentially after that point. The manifest sequence number tied the VIN, Body number, carrier number, order number, etc all together in one place, but was of no use after the vehicle left the assembly plant (that is, not like the VIN which would be forever affixed to that unique vehicle).

Perhaps Eric White (gtoric) can confirm or negate my thoughts.

I'll be out there probably Tuesday through Friday (but not Saturday) - if you would like, we could ride up to the complex and drive around, and I'll point out some of the various buildings and locations.

K

[relmers]

Originally Posted by Keith Seymore

----> The caption is correct, as plant 16 was the Final Finish plant (I believe pinstriping was done there, for example); vehicles were shipped there after Plant 8 (the final assembly location). You might already know there were roughly 10 or 15 separate buildings, all co-located on the same property, each having a specific plant designation (this is fairly typical among the manufacturers here in Michigan).


However, I believe they misintrepted the number "55" - that was not "Line 55", but the build manifest sequence number for that specific car on the line. It was "Car number 55" on that build manifest, a (sort of) random start point but the numbers increasing sequentially after that point. The manifest sequence number tied the VIN, Body number, carrier number, order number, etc all together in one place, but was of no use after the vehicle left the assembly plant (that is, not like the VIN which would be forever affixed to that unique vehicle).

Perhaps Eric White (gtoric) can confirm or negate my thoughts.

------> I'll be out there probably Tuesday through Friday (but not Saturday) - if you would like, we could ride up to the complex and drive around, and I'll point out some of the various buildings and locations.


K

Interesting information, and I was unaware of the numerous different building on a lot, I'm glad that you mentioned it. I remember going to the Ford plant on a grade school field trip, even though I was very young, I was impressed by what I saw, but unfortunately I don't recall a lot of it.

----> So I take it that every GM plant would probably have a "plant 16" on their grounds and that this number does not related to the Assembly Plant itself, such as Fremont, CA or Pontiac, MI as being plant 16. I would then assume that with the information provided in the picture there is no way to determine which "ASSEMBLY PLANT" this picture was taken in, correct?

------> I would love to meet and visit this week. My wife and I will be arriving (hopefully) Tuesday night/Wednesday morning. Being I grew up in Ferndale, I'm planning on making some personal visits over the few days we are there and then attending the event on Saturday with the WOODWARD GTO TIGERS; my car will have Minnesota plates on it. I will send you a PM with my personal email, maybe trade numbers and if we can find a time that will work, I'll take you up on your offer.

[Keith Seymore]

Yes - every GM plant would have a shipping location, but not all (if any others) would be designated "Plant 16". The plant numbering system is specific to each facility and springs up based on the sequence that the buildings were built or placed in service. My dad worked at Chevrolet Pressed Metal, in downtown Flint. Some of the plants I remember him referring to were Plant 38, Plant 10, Plant 2, Plant 2A, etc. Flint Assembly, where I started some 31 years ago, had a separate shipping building but if it had a number associated with it I don't recall what it was.

As such, we can definitively state that the photo you linked was taken in Pontiac (as opposed to Fremont or any other assembly plant).


K

[Aus Goat]

Can anyone tell me the exact address for the P plant in Joslyn Ave Michigan. I am trying to get the exact latitude and longtitude for a project of mine

[1967SC]

RIP Linden,NJ 1937-2005

[Keith Seymore]

Originally Posted by Aus Goat

Can anyone tell me the exact address for the P plant in Joslyn Ave Michigan. I am trying to get the exact latitude and longtitude for a project of mine

It's bounded by Baldwin Road on the west; Joslyn Ave on the east; Montcalm to the south and Columbia to the north.

The GM Powertrain Building (formerly Pontiac Engineering Building) is officially at 823 Joslyn Ave, Pontiac Michigan 48340-2925

K


(Map courtesy of Eric White's "Made in Pontiac" series)

[Aus Goat]

Thanks for your help, it's much appeciated

['ol Pinion head]

For 1971 model, Pontiac A-bodys were built out of following asm plants:

Pontiac (P)
Fremont (Z)
Lakewood (A)
Framingham (G)
Oshawa (1)

The charts shown on Page 1 of this thread list Arlington & Baltimore as 1971 Pontiac A-body plants. 1970 models were the last model year Pontiac A-bodys were built out of both plants.

[GT182]

I hauled out of all the east coast plants plus Lordstown and Lansing. Plus the railyards at Twin Oaks in PA and Framingham starting in March of 78. And Wellesley Island which was the Oshawa dropoff for their vehicles coming into the states for the northeast. Canadians couldn't deliver in the States and we couldn't deliver in Canada.... which was a good thing.

Too bad the lists don't include the rest of the 70s and into the late 80s. Then you'd see the model changes made thru the years at the plants. Some were pretty drastic. St. Therese went from the best sellers GM had to the Firebird, which was a huge downfall for them and us at Anchor Motor Freight.

[Keith Seymore]

Eric -

Looking for confirmation: The official VIN card for 1972 trucks

http://service.gm.com/dealerworld/vi.../vincard72.pdf (page 2)

does not show Kansas City, Los Angeles (Van Nuys), St Louis or Fremont as truck producing plants.

Your charts in the original post show these plants as producing trucks.

I know I supported St Louis after I started in 1979, so it was a truck plant at some point (not sure when they started).

I also know that Fremont produced the '67-'72 style trucks (at some point) so not sure why it would not be on the VIN card.

K

PS - I suppose I should mention that is the link for the official VIN decode cards. It is fairly complete (passenger car and truck) from 1972 to present, and select versions from 1960 - '71.

We carried laminated versions of these cards in our pockets (along with our pocket protectors) as a reference in the assembly plant.

http://service.gm.com/dealerworld/vincards

[Alvin]

Check this out http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...d.php?t=744652

['ol Pinion head]

Originally Posted by Keith Seymore

Eric -

Looking for confirmation: The official VIN card for 1972 trucks

http://service.gm.com/dealerworld/vi.../vincard72.pdf (page 2)

does not show Kansas City, Los Angeles (Van Nuys), St Louis or Fremont as truck producing plants.

Your charts in the original post show these plants as producing trucks.

I know I supported St Louis after I started in 1979, so it was a truck plant at some point (not sure when they started).

I also know that Fremont produced the '67-'72 style trucks (at some point) so not sure why it would not be on the VIN card.

K...

Keith,
Fremont shifted capacity for '72 Pontiac A-body builds in '72. As result, not nearly as many Pontiac A-bodys were built out of Fremont in '72. This seems to have been part of a move to build more ElCaminos & GMC Sprints out of Fremont during '72 model year. Don't believe those were considered trucks. Will start noting VIN's on '67-72 C10 pickups as am yarding, still see a ton of them..