[Tenney]

Originally Posted by Tom Vaught

I do lots of work with a former RACE shop (Road Race) in Livonia, Michigan. They do a lot of prototype fabrication stuff for us. Install engines, chassis work, water jet work, machining work, design work.

No different that Jim Wangers setting up Royal Pontiac as a place for people in GM to get stuff done, be it company car work, fab work, engine work etc.

I sign the paperwork that approves the payments get paid. THERE IS NO DOUBT IN ANYONE'S MIND THAT I AM THE "CUSTOMER" AND WHAT I WANT HAPPENS OR I GO SOMEWHERE ELSE.

Royal WAS a Pontiac Dealership before Jim selected them for his special jobs and the other perks they received. No different than the company I deal with.

I don't rubber-stamp anything but at the same time I am not standing there looking over their shoulders when they are building the parts for me. I want it done, I leave it to them as Master Fabricators to make it happen based on my designs/wishes. I am the customer!

Tom Vaught

Sub-contractor, then? Would guess you've selected and awarded business to a group that you trust work within the parameters given, yes?

[Old Man Taylor]

I think Jim loves the controversy, and the fact that these discussions continue with no seeming end. However, his ultimate answer anymore is "It's in my book!"

[Tom Vaught]

Originally Posted by Tenney

Sub-contractor, then? Would guess you've selected and awarded business to a group that you trust work within the parameters given, yes?

No such thing as "trust" in Engineering. You make requests and you verify that the requests were carried out properly. If the requests are not carried out properly (typically only takes a couple of times), you go somewhere else where they can "follow directions".

No yelling, you just move your business elsewhere. The management in the company you were working with typically addresses the issue of miss-communication.

I try to eliminate as much miss-communication as possible by checking on the work often, having the company take photos that are e-mailed to me, and then keeping those e-mails if I need additional parts made later. I can reference the previous work by using those photos. We also make revisions to parts (as we learn), therefore a photo history give everyone the best info.

I give out many "assignments" in a year, I cannot keep track of them all without "memory clues". I could see where it would be very difficult to remember every task given to Royal from a year ago, much less, 20, 30, 40 years ago.

Tom Vaught

[Tom Vaught]

It is fun to investigate the different "mules" that were used during the 1964 GTO program and try and figure out where they fit into the scheme of things.

Agree, OMT, I am sure that Jim W likes this stuff as it brings back fond memories.

Tom Vaught

[SD421]

Originally Posted by Tom Vaught

I see two sets of swearing. That is what I was personally going by and responding to.

Tom Vaught

Yes, the first time was what I remember him saying to me in 1995.
The second time was when I told Jim what my reaction was to him admitting in his book that it was a 421 that I had sworn that he had "lied" to me.


Don

[Tenney]

Originally Posted by Tom Vaught

No such thing as "trust" in Engineering. You make requests and you verify that the requests were carried out properly. If the requests are not carried out properly (typically only takes a couple of times), you go somewhere else where they can "follow directions".

Indeed.

I may've misunderstood your earlier post, Tom. But it'd be highly unlikely (and bad bidness) for the crew at Royal to "sneak" a 421 into a car unannounced, or unbeknownst to Jim or Pontiac for the Car and Driver (or any) test.

Would guess Jim didn't have engineering install the 421 without approval to do so, either.

[Tom Vaught]

Originally Posted by SD421

Yes, the first time was what I remember him saying to me in 1995.
The second time was when I told Jim what my reaction was to him admitting in his book that it was a 421 that I had sworn that he had "lied" to me.

Don

I miss-read your post too, I read that Jim was saying that someone told him the engine was a 389 vs a 421 and then later he later found out they did not tell him the truth, that was his excuse. Sorry.

Tom Vaught

[Tom Vaught]

Originally Posted by Tenney

Indeed.

I may've misunderstood your earlier post, Tom. But it'd be highly unlikely (and bad bidness) for the crew at Royal to "sneak" a 421 into a car unannounced, or unbeknownst to Jim or Pontiac for the Car and Driver (or any) test.

Would guess Jim didn't have engineering install the 421 without approval to do so, either.

Based on that logic, Tenney, you move from a person(s) slipping a 421 engine into a road-test car without Jim Wangers or Pontiac being aware of the swap, therefore their (Wangers, DeLorean, GM) representation of the vehicle to the press was an honest mistake.

I would rather believe that deal vs a effort by Wangers, DeLorean, GM to intentionally misrepresent the vehicle to the press to gain sales over say Ford or Chrysler. Enough mistakes are made normally in the auto industry without that business. Street Racing is one thing, misrepresentation of the vehicle to the press is another.

Tom Vaught

[geeteeohguy]

If a 421 was "slipped into the test car" without the knowledge of Wangers, DeLorean, etc, then who would have made the switch, and for what reason? Now I'm really curious!!!

[Tenney]

Originally Posted by Tom Vaught

He could very well have been lied to by Frank R, Milt, and the rest of the guys at Royal prior to the road tests. He was their customer, they were trying to sell a "Royal Bobcat" package and generate more work for the dealership.

I think I misunderstood your statement above, Tom, with humorous results.

I also think Jim Wangers had Pontiac engineering swap a 421 HO/M-21/3.90 into the Red Car so that it would go quicker/faster in the Car and Driver GTO v. GTO test, as he admitted in his book (Milt states same in his book, btw).

[Tom Vaught]

My statement is simple, "you cheat to win" therefore "The Cheater"

Tom Vaught

[Tenney]

Originally Posted by Tom Vaught

3) The "Blue Car" was supposedly destroyed in a fire many years ago.
Funny thing is, I have heard "rumors" over the years from very good sources that the car was not destroyed.

Meanwhile ...

We've kinda neglected the topic of the thread, the "Blue Car".

Sorry, John V.!

I think it was crushed, as Jim Wangers says in his book. He was there.

What is/was the fire story?

If it wasn't destroyed, where did it go post-Daytona?

Anyone see it since?

[Tom Vaught]

Originally Posted by Tenney

Meanwhile ...

We've kinda neglected the topic of the thread, the "Blue Car".

Sorry, John V.!

I think it was crushed, as Jim Wangers says in his book. He was there.

What is/was the fire story?

If it wasn't destroyed, where did it go post-Daytona?

Anyone see it since?

Back on the Blue Car:

Maybe you should ask Jack "The Hurst Shifty Doctor" Watson

Tom Vaught

[Tenney]

Does he post here, Tom?

I've asked some Detroit/Woodward/Royal friends who were around at the time, and none had seen the car.

[Tom Vaught]

No, Jack Watson, to my knowledge, has never posted on PY.

Milt and Jim know him though.

Tom V.

[Tom Vaught]

Back on the Blue Car:

1) I think that we can assume that there were very few 64 GTOs out there in late 1963/early 1964.

2) Hot Rod magazine barely gives the car (64 GTO) any coverage and
the coverage is on the 4 bbl convertible.

3) There is sufficient press/ agreement to assume that both the Red car and the Blue Car could have had 421 engines installed.

So now I bring up Jack Watson and people ask who is Jack "Doc" Watson?

http://www.hemmings.com/mus/stories/...feature21.html

"He's worked with some of the greatest automotive engineers, and although his name is not on the car he developed, it is one of the most instantly recognizable muscle cars. And his mechanical prowess helped many a drag racer, because he had all the answers to their four-speed shifting problems. A determined man still today, he has had a reputation to make things work. More importantly, he cut through the red tape to get things done right the first time.

Jack Watson, known in drag racing circles simply as "Doc" Watson, the man who was George Hurst's right-hand man, is credited with being the creator of the first Hurst/Oldsmobile in 1968.

Before his Hurst days, Doc worked with fabled Corvette engineer Zora Arkus-Duntov who, along with Ed Cole, was called the father of the small-block Chevrolet, and Castelletto Dolza, better known as John Dolza, who developed the thinwall, rocker-ball rocker-arm assembly for the small-block Chevrolet. Doc worked with GM and developed "Super Duty" groups within each division.

In 1960, Doc was given an O.K. by GM brass to take a few Tempests, Skylarks and Cutlasses and put bigger engines in them for weight evaluation. When Hurst Performance was in its infancy in Glenside, Pennsylvania, Doc released the Hurst three-speed shifter to the Pontiac Super Duty program, and a relationship began that grew to proportions nobody had expected. Through his relationship with Hurst Performance, Doc eventually became president of Hurst Performance Research, based in Michigan.

"Doc was known, and still is, as a man who gets things done. He knew how to get around the red tape and get around hoops, rather than jump through them."

http://www.metacafe.com/watch/401927...t_performance/

http://www.cmoc.ca/showthread.php?t=14553

Jack Watson is a Director at Revstone Industries, Southfield, Michigan.

Jack probably knows more about the Blue Car than anyone in the world.

Questions:

a) 64 GTOs had Hurst Shifters installed from the beginning, who do you think made that happen on a assumed 5,000 vehicle production run?

b) Jack Watson had lots of experience installing larger engines in Pontiac vehicles in the early 60s, see above, who would you pick to test early mule vehicles even before the Red and Blue cars secretly?

c) At the time Milt was getting the Sherman GTO ready for the "World Tour" Jack Watson was running a business in Michigan about 10 miles from my home. I talked to Jack about the Red and Blue cars and he told me the Blue Car had a 421 engine installed.

Jack was still out there in 2010, ask him.

Tom Vaught

[Tenney]

Great info, Tom, thanks!

Know of Jack, and certainly read of him over the years - particularly as the "Shifty Doctor" and the Hurst Olds program. Jim Wangers championed him to George Hurst for the gig.

Had the Red Car at an event in Detroit that Mr. Watson also attended and looked forward to meeting him, but schedule conflicted and so Scott went w/the car.

Bet John V. would enjoy speaking w/"Doc", as well.

[Tom Vaught]

I am sure that Doc could provide a lot of info on the shifter side but with his work in the industry/ plants he might have some "Golden Nuggets" on the plant stuff too.

Tom Vaught

ps The engine/ camshaft sounds really good, makes me want to get my 64 out on the road again this summer. Still want to do some Suspension work (Disc Brakes). My GTO engine sounded a lot like yours, maybe a touch more radical. I remember Scott's comment at the Woodward GTO Convention, "Does that thing run" (at the time he was running slower with his dad's 65 GTO and had not bought the "Legend" from Clint Logan I believe).

[SD421]

Originally Posted by Tenney

Meanwhile ...

We've kinda neglected the topic of the thread, the "Blue Car".

Sorry, John V.!

I think it was crushed, as Jim Wangers says in his book. He was there.

What is/was the fire story?

If it wasn't destroyed, where did it go post-Daytona?

Anyone see it since?

First I didnt realize this thread was for the "Blue" car. My apologies to John V.

If we were to try and get an idea of what might have been going through Jim Wangers head at the time of the C&D test, maybe that would give us an idea about the intent of the use of the Blue Car..

So I would surmise that the Blue car was setup only to appease the C&D writers who who more into the European styling, ride & comfort that a car they thought should have. Wangers knowing he'd have to win them over either way gave them what they wanted and then used the Red car as the one finishing touch by blowing the C&D writers out of the water with this car that could go 0-60 in "4.6 seconds".

I think what happened, was in Jim's mind, it was the acceleration tests that were more important than a car in those days that could handle.

The fact that the Red car was saved, even with a blown engine(spun bearing) shows that dag racing was the name of the game and if the Blue car had been fitted for the acceleration tests, then maybe Tenney would have the Blue car sitting out in his garage, (it better be in your garage and not parked out in the cold)
& this thread would have been about the whereabouts of the Red car.

The Blue car, which flat towed the Red car back to, I assume, Royal Pontiac, was never heard from again seems to point in my opinion that it was given back to Pontiac for the crusher?

Maybe even Wangers thought about converting the Blue car over to the same specs as the Red one once the C&D tests was over but couldn't get the approval or the money to do that?? So the Blue car served its purpose which was to appease the C&D writers.

Imagine, two 421 HO, Bobcatted, GTO's beating the tar off of every car they went up against in 1964?? Now that's ADVERTISING.

My 2 cents,
Don

[Dr. Eric M. Schiffer]

Years ago Pete McCarthy called me about whether the two cars had 389's or 421's. Because he had pictures from a magazine that showed the mountain on the back of the block.
My response to Pete was: "Do you realize what a great advertizing coup'e this is? That 30 years after the Car and Driver tests you are still talking about the subject. Sure Jim Wangers loves this....It is a completement to him." And the fact you guys are still talking what happened to the long ago scraped Blue car 48 years later is even more of a complement to Jim Wangers.... Yes Jim does love this.
I called Jim about the Pete conversation and we laughted about it. It wasn't a year later that Jim acknowleged the 421 HO the Red car to the public.
But the blue car was crushed. It was a pilot car. Meaning it was used to test the production line and no VIN was assigned. It could have been a program car too. These cars would be used as engineering test cars or magazine cars. Never to be sold to the public. When their usefulness was complete they are crushed. That way the factory avoided any possible law suits for vehical failures. (Note piolt cars are what many of the factory racers got from the big three. That is why there was never a title with these cars. At the time it was beleived since the fit and finish was not that good and racers didn't really care. The racers appreciated free cars. So once these cars were used by the racers they would be so used up no one would want them so they are scraped. No titles were given with the care either because no VIN. NO VIN then the cars would never be used on the street. Well, so the factories thought. Ask Keith Seymore about his dad's '65 GTO)
You may remember the red '68 GTO that had several engine, 400 HO than a 400 Ram Air II in Cars magzine a 428 Bobcat in the Car and Driver test etc it was crushed. As was the '69 GTO that began life as a Press Introduction GTO in Lime Light Green with white interior rear mounted antenna and became a Ram Air IV, then a Judge for the press to test and PMD photos it had with many engines for comparison tests, Ram Air III, was to be the "Real Ram Air V" Daytona test car and ended Royal's 11 second street racer and a subject of Brock Yates with Bill Schmitz runing a Hemi. The Judge was faster than the '69 Ram Air IV Bobcat Crystal Turquose. These are either program or pilot cars and they all get crushed to avoid legal problems...
I am good friends with Jack "Doc" Watson and his family. While Jack is a great guy he does like to take credit for things he was never involved in. Jack did not go to work for Hurst Corp until Jim Wangers introduced him to George Hurst in approximately late '62 early '63.
There is a movie that Pontiac Motor made testing two 1962 Catalina's at Daytona to set endurance records. One was a black and white car sedan called the Police Enforcer and the other was a red hard top. Jim Mattison was showing the PMD movie of this event to a group of us 17 years ago. I was having a drink with Jack Watson as we watched the movie. Jack pointed out that it was him who was the one breaking down tires in the pits. Mattison replayed the segement a couple of times so we could get a better look. Jack had accompained Jim Wangers and the group to to Daytona to help out. Jack was 19 - 21 years old in 1962.
As for Milt Schorneck he was not hired by Royal Pontiac until October 1963. The two C and D cars had been to PMD engineering after coming off the assembly line in early October for the 389 to 421 HO engine. (Tenney should be able to tell from his red car's build sheet) When the cars came into Royal's sevice area in November '63 it was Chuck Broomfield who took over and did all of the Bobcat kit installations. Milt was just a line mechanic at Royal at this point.
If they do know both Jack and Milt would probably tell you the blue car has been crushed....Or as Jim Wangers will tell you "Read my book".
Another good book that explains the "Pilot" cars is by Charles Morris, "Factory Light Weights", page 99 side bar...I explain it there.