[wrench]

Originally Posted by moparcolt

selling it either way, but it is not certified, it would need updating. it is an older cage and is probably mild steel.

It is not really a race car. it was going to be before I bought it but I put it back on the street. It has alot of good parts and was well done but 2200 HP is A LOT!!!

I think most of the cage would need redone. you would have to see it.

http://s248.photobucket.com/albums/g...colt/firebird/

That is a great looking Firebird. PM sent.

[Travis Q]

Originally Posted by NHRASuperStock455SD

Tom, Rodney what kind of longevity do you guys see with 2000Hp plus Pontiac engines? Nearly 300Hp per cylinder has got to be a lot of free energy to maintain.

Rod may not see this, so I'll take the liberty of replying to this question......we put 90 passes and over 20 dyno pulls on the same crank, rods, pistons, bearings, rings, head gaskets, valves, springs, rocker arms.....in short, we didn't break anything in nearly three years of racing. Engine-wise, anyway.

We are putting rods and pistons in it now....we hate to spend the money, but there is a finite life for those components and we can't afford to find out what that lifespan really is!

The only components that have been replaced are the spark plugs and one fuel injector which was stuck open when we fired the engine the first time. No lie. Many will say that a 2800 hp engine is a maintenance nightmare, but it hasn't been for us so far. I can say for sure that our low engine speed (never more than 8000-8200) and the fact that we take care of the fuel system and keep an eye on injectors, the fuel pump, etc. makes a huge difference.

Every single pass we have made has been above 2000 hp, some were close to maxed out, others we had power pulled to try to go A to B. But I can say with 100% certainty that we have been 2000hp+ on every single hit. The first dyno pull was 2600 hp.

[T Syron]

Originally Posted by Travis Q

Rod may not see this, so I'll take the liberty of replying to this question......we put 90 passes and over 20 dyno pulls on the same crank, rods, pistons, bearings, rings, head gaskets, valves, springs, rocker arms.....in short, we didn't break anything in nearly three years of racing. Engine-wise, anyway.

We are putting rods and pistons in it now....we hate to spend the money, but there is a finite life for those components and we can't afford to find out what that lifespan really is!

The only components that have been replaced are the spark plugs and one fuel injector which was stuck open when we fired the engine the first time. No lie. Many will say that a 2800 hp engine is a maintenance nightmare, but it hasn't been for us so far. I can say for sure that our low engine speed (never more than 8000-8200) and the fact that we take care of the fuel system and keep an eye on injectors, the fuel pump, etc. makes a huge difference.

Every single pass we have made has been above 2000 hp, some were close to maxed out, others we had power pulled to try to go A to B. But I can say with 100% certainty that we have been 2000hp+ on every single hit. The first dyno pull was 2600 hp.

Where are all the nay sayers now? "that motor only lived for one pull on the dyno" bla,bla,bla.

Keep up the good work!

Tom

[Tom Vaught]

"Boosted Engines" are not time bombs (if done correctly). At one time Steve Morris was using a 572 Chebby Boosted engine for a series of Carburetor Shoot-out tests. Video is available elsewhere.

Many, many, dyno pulls above 2000 hp on THAT engine BEFORE it was sent to the customer. Same deal applies to Rodney and Travis engine. You do it right and it will live a long time.

You do it wrong and you kick the rods out of the engine or pop the boosting device off the engine much more than you like.

A proper "Build/ Tune-up" is a proper "Build/ Tune-up" on any piece of metal.

Tom Vaught

[NHRASuperStock455SD]

Originally Posted by Tom Vaught

"Boosted Engines" are not time bombs (if done correctly). At one time Steve Morris was using a 572 Chebby Boosted engine for a series of Carburetor Shoot-out tests. Video is available elsewhere.

Many, many, dyno pulls above 2000 hp on THAT engine BEFORE it was sent to the customer. Same deal applies to Rodney and Travis engine. You do it right and it will live a long time.

You do it wrong and you kick the rods out of the engine or pop the boosting device off the engine much more than you like.

A proper "Build/ Tune-up" is a proper "Build/ Tune-up" on any piece of metal.

Tom Vaught

Build aside, we are talking 2200HP and not 1000HP. There has to be a difference due to the energy output and overall heat. Tony says at 2200HP the maintenance goes way up! Guys on the street dont go 60 or 90 passes and do a rebuild like racer do. They go driving around could do 5 or 10 quarter mile blasts in one evening (Pontiac Hell Raiser )

IE those Super Charged Fords at 1000HP cant have the same durability as a normally aspirated? Those Super Charged engines are seeing almost 200HP per cylinder where as the comparable NA is what about 50HP? There has to be a difference. Ed's engine is designed hopefully for 100HP more than those Fords.

Travis's post said it all. He does 90 passes? We can live with that, as race guys watch engines usually way different than street guys. We cut filters open, etc. A street engine is much different. 20 Saturday nights out, hit it 4-5 times. That is time for a race car to rebuild!

I know I am exaggerating, but tell me when Ed is out playing he isnt going to blister a few Chevys. This is a street engine with HUGE Turbos and huge heads. He has the best parts money can buy. Tony says 2200HP is a bunch and it severely reduces the life of any style engine. It has 2x the race style horsepower. I think he wants to make it understood that he isnt offering a 100,000 mile 10 year warranty between rebuilds.

Steve Morris does this all the time, I think this might be Ed's best option. Otherwise, we could do a pull that demonstrates power with X boost, and map out the rest according to the design chart from Turbonetics. This engine has the best that money can buy with one of the best engine builders in the country. I also know we have one of the best quality Turbos in the business.

[Tom Vaught]

I think that Ed has a great chance for success with Tony building the engine and Steve Morris putting the final high boost dyno pulls on the engine.

I would bet that when the engine actually hits the street it will be no where near 2000 HP on a normal cruise night. So if the engine runs on the street 80% of the time you look at the durability curve for that STREET HP number, not the 2000+ HP number.

Tom Vaught

[Travis Q]

Originally Posted by Tom Vaught

if the engine runs on the street 80% of the time you look at the durability curve for that STREET HP number, not the 2000+ HP number.

Tom Vaught

Absolutely, positively 100% truth. A turbocharged engine is nothing more than a low com-ression naturally aspirated engine with a small camshaft until you put your foot in it!

The one thing to keep in mind is that aluminum rods don't mix well with extended street driving and high power applicatioins, since it's not really possible to predict at exactly what point you have to start questioning the rods' life cycle. Valvesprings are another area to keep an eye on in a street high power turbo application. You must have lots and lots of spring pressure to make big power with high boost pressures with a turbo engine, and extended street driving will certainly take its toll on valvesprings. So you've got to keep a close watch on seat pressures. However, new spring materials allow you to get away with a whole lot more these days than we could even 10 years ago....some of the new PSI, Manley, and PAC valvesprings will allow you to stay well over 300 psi seat pressure, even with street driving/repeated thermal cycles.

[RAIV-Z]

Originally Posted by Tom Vaught

I think that Ed has a great chance for success with Tony building the engine and Steve Morris putting the final high boost dyno pulls on the engine.

I would bet that when the engine actually hits the street it will be no where near 2000 HP on a normal cruise night. So if the engine runs on the street 80% of the time you look at the durability curve for that STREET HP number, not the 2000+ HP number.

Tom Vaught

Tom, you're right. If the engine makes at least the minimum the NA power we expect “750HP”, there will be little need for much boost when dropping by a local cruise night.

[Tom Vaught]

Originally Posted by Travis Q

Absolutely, positively 100% truth. A turbocharged engine is nothing more than a low compression naturally aspirated engine with a small camshaft until you put your foot in it!

The one thing to keep in mind is that aluminum rods don't mix well with extended street driving and high power applications, since it's not really possible to predict at exactly what point you have to start questioning the rods' life cycle. Valve springs are another area to keep an eye on in a street high power turbo application. You must have lots and lots of spring pressure to make big power with high boost pressures with a turbo engine, and extended street driving will certainly take its toll on valve springs. So you've got to keep a close watch on seat pressures. However, new spring materials allow you to get away with a whole lot more these days than we could even 10 years ago....some of the new PSI, Manley, and PAC valve springs will allow you to stay well over 300 psi seat pressure, even with street driving/repeated thermal cycles.

As usual, Travis points out the items that many people overlook (when building these 2000+ hp "Street Car Engines". I have seen a lot of Street Cars on a trailer until the last couple of miles and then off-loaded and "driven" to the event. Yep, the engine/ car probably could have been driven the whole way to an event but racers many many years ago figured that their performance was better and maintenance costs went down if they could trailer to an event.

You really have three choices:

1) Build a lower HP engine (say 700 hp) and drive it on the street a lot.
2) Build a Higher HP engine, drive it on the street sometimes and work on it constantly.
3) Build a very high HP engine, trailer it to events, keep accurate records of every pass, figure out how many passes you can run before you get nervous with the parts, and spend a lot of money along the way having fun in the pits working on the car when the very expensive parts failed well before you thought they would.

I have known many Racers who sold their high HP toys, bought a Street Rod, went on cruises all over the United States, drank a lot of beer, told a lot of stories about the old days when they were racers, and had the time of their lives with their friends.

Tom Vaught

The Ratrod movement has never been stronger.

[RAIV-Z]

Originally Posted by Travis Q

Absolutely, positively 100% truth. A turbocharged engine is nothing more than a low com-ression naturally aspirated engine with a small camshaft until you put your foot in it!

The one thing to keep in mind is that aluminum rods don't mix well with extended street driving and high power applicatioins, since it's not really possible to predict at exactly what point you have to start questioning the rods' life cycle. Valvesprings are another area to keep an eye on in a street high power turbo application. You must have lots and lots of spring pressure to make big power with high boost pressures with a turbo engine, and extended street driving will certainly take its toll on valvesprings. So you've got to keep a close watch on seat pressures. However, new spring materials allow you to get away with a whole lot more these days than we could even 10 years ago....some of the new PSI, Manley, and PAC valvesprings will allow you to stay well over 300 psi seat pressure, even with street driving/repeated thermal cycles.

We’re running Callies Ultra Billet Rods and Manly Nextec springs, I haven’t seen the build/blueprint sheet so I can't tell you what the seat pressure was set to. Overall lift will be less than .750. Do you take boost pressure into consideration when determining spring seat pressure?

[shaker455]

Okay Ed where's this engine now?

[RAIV-Z]

Originally Posted by shaker455

Okay Ed where's this engine now?

The engine is still at BES, long block assembled. Tony wants to break it in NA. I'll have to have the EFI, PCV, turbo stuff done somewhere else.
Turbo headers/hot side are at the Indycartel, I'm being told the turbos might not fit where I wanted them. Not sure how this happened as it was mocked up before JoeyB started the headers. From what I can see, the collector merge is too long.

[shaker455]

Maybe you should bring it all home and and N/A dyno it at Lenny Caverly's dyno.

We can find the right people in our own area to draw on for the turbo aspect rather than have it all spread around the country and not be there to have control over your own project.

[Travis Q]

You've ALWAYS got to take boost into account. That and intake valve area. Bigger intake valves require more spring pressure, since the boost acting on the valve has more surface area to act upon, and therefore "takes away" a larger amount of seat pressure. Also, stainless valves will need more spring pressure than a titanium valve will because of the mass of the valve itself. Of course, rpm range comes into play, too. More rpm requires more spring pressure.

For a stainless valve with a diameter of around 2.20 inches in a turbocharged application seeing 20 psi boost pressure @ 7500 rpm, I would want absolutely no less than 325 lbs on the seat. Titanium valves buy you the ability to run less pressure (at that boost level), but don't mix well with extended street driving. More boost will require more spring.

As Tom alluded to, there is no free lunch. In one area or another, we must all pay the piper. There is always compromise when putting together a high powered engine, especially one that's going to be run on the street. The question is can we tolerate negative aspects of that compromise. Turbocharged engines allow us to have enormous power levels in street driven applications with less negative compromises.

Still, there is no free lunch.

[cgeise]

Originally Posted by Travis Q

Rod may not see this, so I'll take the liberty of replying to this question......we put 90 passes and over 20 dyno pulls on the same crank, rods, pistons, bearings, rings, head gaskets, valves, springs, rocker arms.....in short, we didn't break anything in nearly three years of racing. Engine-wise, anyway.

We are putting rods and pistons in it now....we hate to spend the money, but there is a finite life for those components and we can't afford to find out what that lifespan really is!

The only components that have been replaced are the spark plugs and one fuel injector which was stuck open when we fired the engine the first time. No lie. Many will say that a 2800 hp engine is a maintenance nightmare, but it hasn't been for us so far. I can say for sure that our low engine speed (never more than 8000-8200) and the fact that we take care of the fuel system and keep an eye on injectors, the fuel pump, etc. makes a huge difference.

Every single pass we have made has been above 2000 hp, some were close to maxed out, others we had power pulled to try to go A to B. But I can say with 100% certainty that we have been 2000hp+ on every single hit. The first dyno pull was 2600 hp.

Travis -I agree 100 percent -- I almost feel guilty how little work it really requires the engine any way -- now tranny is a diff story

[Travis Q]

Curt -

I know how you feel. We have managed to tear up everything from the flywheel rearward. We just finished up repairing the rear housing from our Norwalk outing. The wheelie bars and transmission reverser are up next to be fixed. Rods exact words: "It is amazing to me how much stuff we can tear up in less than two tenths of a second."

But the engine isn't on that list of torn up equipment! (knock on wood)

Propelling a 2750 lb car to low six second ETs aint for the faint of heart or for those who can't weld!

LOL!!

[cgeise]

I got a guy out here that builds a killer rear end housing - -mine has been fine -- but when I changed to a th400 from a p/g It all went to hell - untill we found out what was causing it -- I just checked the bearings after last year and they look new -now once I get the paint fixed we will be good to go -

[NHRASuperStock455SD]

Originally Posted by Travis Q

You've ALWAYS got to take boost into account. That and intake valve area. Bigger intake valves require more spring pressure, since the boost acting on the valve has more surface area to act upon, and therefore "takes away" a larger amount of seat pressure. Also, stainless valves will need more spring pressure than a titanium valve will because of the mass of the valve itself. Of course, rpm range comes into play, too. More rpm requires more spring pressure.

ditto

Originally Posted by Travis Q

For a stainless valve with a diameter of around 2.20 inches(2.30) in a turbocharged application seeing 20 psi boost pressure @ 7500 rpm, I would want absolutely no less than 325 lbs on the seat. Titanium valves buy you the ability to run less pressure (at that boost level), but don't mix well with extended street driving. More boost will require more spring.

ditto

Tony vacuum fit all valves with specials seats. There are a few ways to gain RPM like a head design w/relatively short valves/pushrods with 11/32 stems.(lighter valve/better seal/proper seat angles = less valve bounce = less seat pressure.)

Originally Posted by Travis Q

As Tom alluded to, there is no free lunch. In one area or another, we must all pay the piper. There is always compromise when putting together a high powered engine, especially one that's going to be run on the street. The question is can we tolerate negative aspects of that compromise. Turbocharged engines allow us to have enormous power levels in street driven applications with less negative compromises.

ditto!

Dyno will tell our street RAV we were so surprized making power to 6700RPM!!! Our RAV design parameters paid off! With race springs we project over 800HP@7600.(Remember no high dollar tricks like Ed's engine)

Originally Posted by Travis Q

Still, there is no free lunch.

Yes..so when we hear that the engine is to be occaisionally street driven we decide how to fit the application.

[RAIV-Z]

Well... The old cage wasn't going to make the 25.3 cut, so it was removed.

[shaker455]

Hi Ed,
last look at those floors?...lol