[70RAlll]

Guys, I have seen 3 -5 times less sheetmetal remaining on a car fully restored without swaping the vin. This particular car won 1st at the TA Nats 1st time out and sold for 285K..Granted, was a RAIV Calif EES car, but still ..it was a 1970 Trans Am.. If you pay a restorer to do the work, yes..you will have a ton into it, if you do the work yourself, over a year of weekends , you will have less actual cash than you think..Still will be upside down, as I think the money of 70 RAlll's is mid 20's-30's right now.. A stock 400 engine , as much as many of us hate to admit, really was not that fast in stock form.Stroked to a 467, and you have a complete different beast... but standard 400 never was that fast of a car. Truth be told, the RAIV was not that fast either, the HO in 1971 was way better car.. I digress.... this 70 TA is not a parts car and swaping vins.... we apparently have a new group of guys on the board..There was a time when no one would get away with suggesting this.. Besides being illegal in most states, just not ethical.. To each their own, but I know I speak for a number of guys on this board when I say VIN swaping, in any situation, is wrong.. If I had the time, I would soooo restore this 70..Would do most of the work myself and have a blast doing so.. my 2c.....

[Norwood]

Tru dat...

[blue71ta]

Originally Posted by 70RAlll

... Besides being illegal in most states, just not ethical.. To each their own, but I know I speak for a number of guys on this board when I say VIN swaping, in any situation, is wrong.. If I had the time, I would soooo restore this 70..Would do most of the work myself and have a blast doing so.. my 2c.....

it's illegal in every state

[RAFormulas]

Originally Posted by 70RAlll

Guys, I have seen 3 -5 times less sheetmetal remaining on a car fully restored without swaping the vin...

I have to agree... this car is totally restorable. I too was surprised when I saw so many comments that this car was beyond restoration and should be re-bodied or parted out.

Bill, I sometimes feel like I am just getting old and a new group is taking the reins on our beloved hobby. There are guys restoring these cars now that weren't even born when these cars ceased to be driven as daily drivers (think about that for a moment). You and I and others on this forum grew up with these cars, unfortunately our numbers are dwindling.

BTW... how is that book coming along? Remember... I want a signed copy

[70RAlll]

Originally Posted by RAFormulas

I have to agree... this car is totally restorable. I too was surprised when I saw so many comments that this car was beyond restoration and should be re-bodied or parted out.

Bill, I sometimes feel like I am just getting old and a new group is taking the reins on our beloved hobby. There are guys restoring these cars now that weren't even born when these cars ceased to be driven as daily drivers (think about that for a moment). You and I and others on this forum grew up with these cars, unfortunately our numbers are dwindling.

BTW... how is that book coming along? Remember... I want a signed copy

Yes Steve..we are getting old.. I guess I am the biggest jerk on the board, but at least you know where I am comming from on a particular issue. No one else spoke up on the vin swaping comments..I just couldn't sit there and let it go.Sort of have a hard time holding my tounge sometimes..I think you guys have seen .
And yes, the new generation sure can write fuel and spark maps on a laptop( which really isn't that difficult,done it more than once from scratch), but wouldn't for a moment know how to weld in rotten floor boards, rebuild a distributor or carb etc... everyone looks at this hobby as an expense you must pay someone else. hell, half the fun of owning these cars is doing all the work yourself.. even if you don't know what you are doing or are "trained" in restoration- you learn along the way..
As far as book.. Sort of lost interest. I have 300+ photos, approx. half the text written and a binder of notes to finish the text, then would have to edit the text with the pictures.. Maybe I'll pick it up again soon..we will see.

Anyway..glad to see some familiar forum members agreeing with my VIN swaping opinion.....

[Kell]

Originally Posted by 70RAlll

No one else spoke up on the vin swaping comments..I just couldn't sit there and let it go.Sort of have a hard time holding my tounge sometimes..I think you guys have seen ..... Anyway..glad to see some familiar forum members agreeing with my VIN swaping opinion.....

I wholeheartedly agree, I have to keep my mouth shut from the tirade I went into when first learning that this was somehow common practice???, what a bunch of bull crud. This is one of the reasons I would probably never buy a real TA, I have talked to people on the phone who flat out told me they did a VIN swap, even the last bunch of junk parts I bought had a VIN tag and the firewall section cut out of a TA, like it's no big deal or something?

[Formulajones]

I don't remember anyone saying it was UN-restorable, I've certainly seen worse. Just that in my opinion it's not worth the hassle or expense anymore. I'm as old as most folks here, grew up around these cars when they were new, and I paint them for a living, so I probably have just as much understanding of what it takes to build these cars as anyone else. It's just my opinion that a car this far gone isn't worth the undertaking unless it's a simple labor of love or has some sort of sentimental value, simply because of the fact that you can buy CONCOURS restored ram air III TA's for a fraction of the cost of a complete restoration this car needs. But this is coming from a guy that isn't on the market for one.

And 70raIII, if your 400's aren't that fast, send them my way for a tune. I've seen many in pure stock running decently and holding their own, and I have mine at a competetive ET in that class,,,just sayin'.

[Norwood]

What would that ET be?

[keith k]

Originally Posted by Formulajones

It's just my opinion that a car this far gone isn't worth the undertaking unless it's a simple labor of love or has some sort of sentimental value, simply because of the fact that you can buy CONCOURS restored ram air III TA's for a fraction of the cost of a complete restoration this car needs. But this is coming from a guy that isn't on the market for one.

Just to provide a different perspective...

I love to restore cars - it's my hobby, and "relief valve" from an occasionally stressful day job. And I'm guilty of all of that labor of love and sentimentality stuff with some of the projects I've chosen. I've also found that once they're done, I lose interest in them fast. So buying "concours restored RA III TA's for a fraction of the cost of a complete restoration" doesn't hold much appeal for me. But I get very excited when a good project car with a matching drivetrain and a good number of original bits comes along.... even if it looks kinda rough. There are some inspiring examples on this forum of folks that have restored cars rougher than the one in this thread appears to be.

I know I'm in the minority on this point, though

[Formulajones]

Originally Posted by keith k

Just to provide a different perspective...

I love to restore cars - it's my hobby, and "relief valve" from an occasionally stressful day job. And I'm guilty of all of that labor of love and sentimentality stuff with some of the projects I've chosen. I've also found that once they're done, I lose interest in them fast. So buying "concours restored RA III TA's for a fraction of the cost of a complete restoration" doesn't hold much appeal for me. But I get very excited when a good project car with a matching drivetrain and a good number of original bits comes along.... even if it looks kinda rough. There are some inspiring examples on this forum of folks that have restored cars rougher than the one in this thread appears to be.

I know I'm in the minority on this point, though

I can certainly understand that. I love working on them too. My only difference (or problem depending on how you look at it ) is that I don't lose interest in them, I become attached.
I also enjoy driving the cars, probably more so than working on them. I'm always looking for a reason to get one out and just drive, even if it's just up to the store. I don't need a car event to enjoy a vintage car. I use one as a daily driver.

[Norwood]

Originally Posted by keith k

Just to provide a different perspective...

I love to restore cars
I know I'm in the minority on this point, though

Maybe not


and that ET is?

[The Boss]

Occasionally one must die so that others may live.

[Kell]

I think you guys are nuts, I hate working on mine. Sure, I have the ability to weld, rebuild the engine, bodywork etc. but I sure don't enjoy it, would much rather be rich and be able to afford one already done and ENJOY driving it, but that's just me. I guess there is some satisfaction in working on it, but it is getting old having to fix every single piece on this thing!

[lawbreaker2]

Don't crush it, restore it!!!!! That car is a project but would be good looking when done.

[thefirebirdm@n]

I like to say ANY Trans Am is worth restoring and given the choice between a 1970 in really bad shape and an 81 in good shape, well i think you guys know the answer. Its all about time and money and I agree with the comments above that if you do most of it yourself, its not that bad. I've been working on my '73 for about 4 years now. No idea what my current total is. Its a lot but its also been spaced out over 4 years. And I am learning to do everything myself because I just don't feel like there are many trustworthy shops or individuals left anymore. Everyone is their own worst critic and its the same with me. Craig talks about doing things himself because he wants it done his way and to his satisfaction. I feel the same way and thats why I am trying to do 99% of everything myself. I agree with the comments against VIN swapping. Not a good idea, ever. I do think however that you replace enough sheetmetal and you have more or less re-bodied a car. If that's what it takes to restore the car, then that's what it takes but that doesn't constitute a VIN swap either. You just replaced 95% of the sheet metal in the body.

[1971455HO]

If you're a great body man, got thirty thousand for paint and parts and two years to spare...it can be done. Then, what's it worth if you did it right. $35,000- $40,000???... not much return for all the blood and sweat. Get a finished car for a little more money that was in way better shape to start with. Way less headaches later. Rust never stops!

[towacoman]

I agree with keith K, Working on my 70 Firebird is a labor of love and a great way for me to chill out after a day of work. It is my happy zone where no one is the boss but me.

[Formulajones]

Originally Posted by towacoman

I agree with keith K, Working on my 70 Firebird is a labor of love and a great way for me to chill out after a day of work. It is my happy zone where no one is the boss but me.

I guess you're not married?