[gene simmons]

Originally Posted by slowbird

There are parts and pieces out there now that have proven to make real good power with what we currently have and not many people have spend the $$$ to buy those. Just my opinion

Exactly!

[mike leech]

This type of thread is why i call engineers....imagineers. This is a pointless topic.

[Elarson]

I accept the new term proudly. Without imagineers, the only drag racing we would have would be on foot, with the starter waving a stick.

Eric

[mike leech]

Originally Posted by Elarson

I accept the new term proudly. Without imagineers, the only drag racing we would have would be on foot, with the starter waving a stick.

Eric

I respectfully disagree. Hot rodders are to credit with modifying their cars. Don't get me wrong I appreciate a good engineer. Problem is if a moron goes to school long enough he will end up one. That and there are many that received no formal education that are more qualified.
That said I have some very good friends that I would call great engineers with little more than a H.S. education. No disrespect intended to anyone.

[Elarson]

Well, the talent in the engineering field fits the traditional bell curve, like any other profession. A few idiots, a few brilliant ones and a lot of ones with varying amounts of functionality in the middle. And any drag racer worth his salt has to give due credit to the legions of backyard inventors.

But you've made my point......"Hot rodders are to credit with modifying their cars".....where did those cars come from?

No disrespect taken....
Eric

[Chris Petersen]

Originally Posted by Torment

Maybe that is the actual DNA of a Pontiac guy: Willing to spend more money to be "Different".

Tom Vaught


Absolutely! And for someone like me that grew up racing on the streets far more than on a track - back before we knew it was a bad thing to do of course - beating the belly button brands was always that much sweeter

X 1000!!

Ask anyone, I HAVE to be different, and for god's sake, dont tell me it cant be done...lol....I will dye trying to make it so.

[PONTIAC DUDE]

I remember back in the early 90's when the E-head came out to replace the #614's & 722's. An awful lot of Pontiac people were dead set against the heads and a lot of slamming when on.
Then the used ported factory heads flowing less were going for $2500 and the E-heads complete were $1400.00
That's what brought me BACK to Pontiac after 20 years.

Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh. The Pontiac forum boards.

The BBC 632 is a great cheap HP combo and all ya have to do is Put on a set of Pontiac logo valve covers.

[johnta1]

What's the HP and the price for it on the 632 BBC?
(like a Sonny or whoever it is)

[PONTIAC DUDE]

Originally Posted by johnta1

What's the HP and the price for it on the 632 BBC?
(like a Sonny or whoever it is)

You have internet. Look it up. Then look at the durability built in.
But here a killer deal. And it's a little motor!!!!!!!!!!!!

COMPLETE from carb to pan. crank trigger, vacuum pump, etc. just add headers and go.

615 CU. IN. 14.5 PONTIAC 1X4 PRO STREET PUMP GAS ENGINE (1000hp)
DESIGNED TO OPERATE ON 92 OCTANE PUMP GAS *** Cross Country Endurance Application 925 HP @ 6500 RPM
1000 HP On Pump Gas!!
Complete and Dyno Tested
PRICE $31,200.00

Features:
Dart Big-M block with ARP studs
4340 internally balanced crank
Eagle steel rods w/L-19 bolts
SAR Venolia pistons with tool steel wrist pins
Total Seal rings
Clevite 77 bearings
SAR/Brodix "Pro Stock" 14.5 degree aluminum head
T&D shaft mounted rocker system
Crane billet roller timing set
SAR/Crane hydraulic roller camshaft
Isky hydraulic roller lifters
Manton 7/16" pushrods
ATI balancer
Internal Moroso Billet pump w/ Moroso aluminum oil pan
MSD cranktrigger distributor
Moroso wires
Holley 1150 carb
Sonny's aluminum valve covers
MSD platinum starter
Moroso vacuum system
Manley valves

[PONTIAC DUDE]

SONNY'S 632 CU. IN. PONTIAC 1X4 ENGINE 1225 HP.
SONNY'S ALSO OFFERS A 1315 H.P. VERSION, WHICH INCLUDES FULLY CNC'D PORTED HI PORT HEADS, AND PRO STOCK VALVE TRAIN UPGRADE
Complete and Dyno Tested
PRICE $33,800.00

632 CU. IN. PONTIAC 1X4 1225 HP - Sonny's Racing Engines & Components
Click image to enlarge
Picture may show optional equipment
Features:
Dart Big "M" block with ARP studs with bronze bushings
Crower/Callies 4.750" stroke 4340 internally balanced crankshaft
SAR/ Manley Pro Series Steel rods
SAR /Venolia pistons
1.031 Tool Steel Wrist Pins
Total Seal rings
SAR/Brodix 14.5 "As Cast" degree aluminum heads featuring Manley titanium valves
T&D shaft mounted rocker system with needle bearing roller tips and one piece rocker bar for endurance
SAR/Dart Intake Ported, with SAR/Custom 1350 CFM Carb
Jesel Belt Drive
Sonny's Custom roller camshaft

These are basic crate engine designs that parts are available.

Now ask Scott Rex or John Langer they have in their................... one off motors.

[PONTIAC DUDE]

For the Money is no object person

***************************

SONNY'S NEW 1000 CU. IN ENGINE HAS ARRIVED OVER 2150 HP ( NATURALLY ASPIRATED)

THE FIRST V8 ENGINE OVER 1000 CU. IN. ENGINE HERE AT SONNY'S!
THIS MONSTER MAKES OVER 2150 HP,and over 1550 Ft. Lbs of Torque, AND YES IT'S NATURALLY ASPIRATED !!!!

Complete and Dyno Tested
PRICE $117,000.00
SONNY'S NEW 1000 CU. IN ENGINE HAS ARRIVED OVER 2150 HP ( NATURALLY ASPIRATED) - Sonny's Racing Engines & Components

Features:
•Sonny's Fully in-house CNC ported Hemispherical Cylinder Heads
•Sonny's/LSM Billet Block with raised cam
•Bryant billet crank
•GRP Billet Aluminum rods
•SAR/Diamond custom pistons
•Sonny's/Isky 1.095 special keyed roller lifters
•Tool steel taper-wall pins
•Total Seal rings
•Manley titanium valves & PSI valve springs
•SAR/ Jesel/T&D rocker system
•Trends one piece pushrods
•Jesel cam belt drive
•Autoverde Dry Sump oiling system
•ATI balancer
•MSD cranktrigger ignition
•SAR Special Sheet Metal Intake with (4) Accufab Throttle Bodies
•SAR/ Big Stuff EFI with Run Map, and 16 Injectors
SAR Billet valve covers
•Mezier hi-torque starter
•Fuel lines, and Fuel Rails with regulator
•Sonny's/ LSM Special 75 mm camshaft

[Elarson]

Note that nowhere in this ad do they call it a BBC.

Eric

[PONTIAC DUDE]

Originally Posted by Elarson

Note that nowhere in this ad do they call it a BBC.

Eric

LOL. Once you reach that point of "development" it is it's own manufacture.
You do see that Sonny's calls his 615 and the 632 a PONTIAC engine!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Is it legal for Norwalk ?????????????????????????

[jdw_poncho]

Originally Posted by 7T2

jeff,
i can have a set of divorced exh port, raised runner 500cfm billet heads cut for you in 6 months for somewhere between 7 and 9 grand a pair. t-ram and valve covers are existing. conventional rocker shaft system already in cad. the beauty of cad is that models transfer directly into cutter paths with mastercam for quick manufacture.
theres enough room on the end margins of the stock 19.75" head surface to house a 4.8 space and 4.6 bores- laid it out years ago just to see if it would fit...
billet crank, rubbed water cores. moved deck features on a billet head. not hard to design- but hard to justify. not sure of the existance of a committed market ...
maybe youll be the first, jeff. gimme a call cometime-
jim

At the rate Im going I might have been better off trying that back in December. At least thats a option, thanks for the heads up.

I have to have something right now so I might end up with a old inline back on the engine for this year.

Jeff

[johnta1]

615 CU. IN. 14.5 PONTIAC 1X4 PRO STREET PUMP GAS ENGINE (1000hp)
DESIGNED TO OPERATE ON 92 OCTANE PUMP GAS *** Cross Country Endurance Application 925 HP @ 6500 RPM
1000 HP On Pump Gas!!
Complete and Dyno Tested
PRICE $31,200.00

So for less money probably and less CID, you could get a real Pontiac!

Hammer Time Racing

I'll stick with Pontiac, thank you.

[Chris Petersen]

Originally Posted by johnta1

So for less money probably and less CID, you could get a real Pontiac!

Hammer Time Racing

I'll stick with Pontiac, thank you.

Quoted from the web site you listed...

"We are currently UNDER DEVELOPMENT on This engine package & will achieve over 900 HP"

And

"We have no price as of yet on this package.... as we are testing many combinations."

Dont know how you came to this about less $ and CI when its still in development?

[johnta1]

They originally had a price.

$19,500 for the 750 HP engine looks like now.

Call them for a price on the ~1000 HP engine?



Still would look better between the frame rails of your car than that chevy crap.

[NHRASuperStock455SD]

Originally Posted by Tom Vaught

A little History first::

Tom, this is a very eloquent case, however you left out a bit of Pontiac history that is pertinent to this discussion:

1.) Ford Engineers were committed to the Tunnel Port design for at least 10 years of research until Bernie Knudsen took over and trashed the whole program in favor or BBC design. So, Ford became a copycat of Chevrolet.(He even brought many of his engineers from Chevrolet making the ultimate "cronieism" move of the day.)

2.) Pontiac recognized the value in the Tunnel Port design and hired the engineering people from Ford.

3.) Pontiac did a 389 FI engine for all the 57 Bonneville Convertibles which also included reverse cooling.

4.) There were some Super Charged Bonnevilles in the late 1950s with reverse cooling for all Pontiac V-8s solving many issues for head gasket issues.

5.) The RAV via the Ford group makes head gasket width a superfluous discussion. We all know it isnt really a problem with gasket width but rather heat from the siamesed exhaust ports combined with reverse cooling.

6.) Pontiac made what I believe to be one of the fastest production cars of all time the 1980 TransAm Turbo which with all stock parameters in NHRA stock class at nearly 4000lbs capable of 11 second quarter mile times with junk yard componets(via Neil Smedley). A super stock version of this engine is needed to compete against the Ford that has an 800 CFM Qjet rated 225HP. I think this engine in Super Stock trim is capable of 600HP which makes a ratio of 2.67 to one. (The 428 that is currently the best combo has a power ratio of 2.24 to one). Gotta build one of these!

7.) A stock block version of this engine with just moderate upgrades I believe capable of 750HP of which we are currently doing a crate engine with RAV heads with the block that was built from short deck RAV tooling for the original 301.

8.) Since RAVs are not limited to the heat issue of traditional siamese Pontiac heads, we can do bores to 4.42 with stock Pontiac bore spacing. If we offset bore the stock blocks we can go to 4.600 or beyond. This puts us over 600 cubic inch engines normally aspirated with stock Pontiac bore spacing and an inexpensive cast stroker crank increasing our flow and straightening our ports reducing valve shrouding.

9.) Turboing arguments are highly recommended been there done that, but it is expensive! No substitute for power. Casey getting 820HP and 805TQ out of his crusty old Ford V-6 proves that!

My recommendations:

1.) Solve all head gasket issues with RAV valve order as it isnt width that is the problem it is really the heat!

2.) We are switching to reverse cooling for all Pontiac ASAP to further reduce heat to the heat and add timing for more ultimate power.(Original Pontiac design)

3.) Normally aspirated street engines can be produced with RAV componets only for over 600 cubic inches with traditional parts and componets at a reasonable price.

4.) 700 cubic inch engines normally aspirated can be produced with more expensive componets on stock Pontiac style castings using RAV heads only.

5.) Turbo engines due to the high heat with exhaust temperatures will benefit without contending with siamesed exhaust problems(which by the way many other manufacturers have the same problem)

6.) Eds turbo engine will make 2200HP with street componets it is a fact. A race engine could be way more. After doing Eds engine I dont know if everyone has the cash to do these complicated engines. Way more involved than a normally aspirated one.

7.) Build my 4.9L Turbo engine for 750HP and I think over 20mpg stock block or the HP race version of over 1400HP, 400 short deck turbo, or Twin Turbo 535. We have two cost stages for each.

Final Analysis: No siamese burn out! (My 455SD 9 to one compression engine burnt the he&& out of the center head gasket and it was a 0.040 Cometic(about 90 passes)!

[GTOGEORGE]

There you go Tom a spread bore 632 cubes Pontiac! LOL



GTO George

[Half-Inch Stud]

I like the way L. McCarty thinks.