[peppergreen]

Buddy just purchased a nice survivor-condition Judge here in Alberta. Looking at PHS, my Pontiac plant serial number is 367 higher than his, My Judge (P202293) shipped Feb 10 to dealer in Montana, his (P201926) shipped Feb 16 to dealer in Kentucky. Mine has higher serial number, but shipped 6 days earlier.

How did the 70 Judges go down the assembly line? Were Judges pulled off line after completion for striping? In any case, we find it interesting these Judges found their way back into the same driveway (for a couple hours) after going their separate ways from the Pontiac plant way back in Feb 1970. We are guessing these two Judges must have sat together in some shipping lot waiting for their ride to the dealership, perhaps they even went to the same area for Judge stripe packages.

I think I read in another thread that the sequencial portion of the serial number had nothing to do with make. Hard to believe 367 GTO’s were made within a 6 day period. Would be interesting to know a bit more about how these cars were put together going down the line. Which plant made the most Judges?

Thanks,..... Friday aft pondering waiting for last snow to get off the roads here in Alberta.

[jmt455]

I can't answer the questions about how many Judges were built at each plant or how the Judges were sequenced, but I CAN tell you that shipping dates could easily vary in the manner you describe.

If the earlier built car was not a "Sold Order", it might not have been shipped immediately. A "Sold Order" was a dealer/retail order for a vehicle made to customer-specified model, colors and options.

In addition, any post-assembly repairs could delay shipment. If your friend's car needed any repairs, it would have sat in the repair lot until all repairs were completed and the vehicle was released for shipment.

[GTO JOHN]

With the cars being only 367 serial numbers apart, and the Pontiac plant pumping out about 40 cars per hour, it is possible the Judges were built on the same day (different shifts) but certainly within one day of each other.

The serial numbers were not GTO specific either, 367 total units were made which included all models.

jmt's scenario about "sold orders" makes perfect sense too. Do the cars' PHS sheets show any dealer order numbers? Was one car possibly a zone order car?

Either way, the Judges are certainly long lost brothers reunited. Just think, it is probable the same guy worked on both cars on the line.....

[peppergreen]

Great info guys thanks,

Noticed Scott's car shipped Feb 12, not the 16th, that was the date of note. My date of note is Feb 18.

Dealer order number 53732 for his, dealer order 14606 for mine. This is one of the few visible "confirmation" numbers on my build sheet, it's in rough shape

Looks like an identification number, mine is PPA373432, Scott's is PPA372376, diff of 1056

His is a neat car, only 5 options. Judge, hood tach, 4 speed, radio P/B, ride/handle package

Cardinal red/black, but it's white now, bunch of correct-added options.

[johnta1]

The ID # would be more important to the order of the car and the VIN relationship I would think.

That PPA # is what the factory used to put the car in the line.
It would also be for all cars of that series (A-body) I believe.
(like the body number on the cowl tag?)

The VIN would be sequential for GTO's while the order number and cowl tag body number would be for A-bodies at that plant.

What were the body numbers on the cowl tags?

['ol Pinion head]

As GTO John alludes, the 367 cars sequentially by VIN could have been Tempests, LeMans, GrandPrix's, or GTO's. All were built at Pontiac home plant for the '70 model, as well as Pontiac B series. For some reason, believe the '70 Pontiac B series out of Pontiac plant had its own VIN sequence.

[peppergreen]

John, the cowl tag body number on my Judge is PON100567, the other Judge is PON097982

[johnta1]

As GTO John alludes, the 367 cars sequentially by VIN could have been Tempests, LeMans, GrandPrix's, or GTO's. All were built at Pontiac home plant for the '70 model, as well as Pontiac B series. For some reason, believe the '70 Pontiac B series out of Pontiac plant had its own VIN sequence.

I think you mean body number and not VIN?

The VIN goes by the series like 242, which would have been GTO.
(GTO was its own series then, 64 would include Lemans, etc)

The body number would have the Lemans, GTO, Tempest in the sequence number?
(a-body)

I don't think the b-body would be included in any a-body numbers?

[johnta1]

John, the cowl tag body number on my Judge is PON100567, the other Judge is PON097982

Having 2585 vehicles between the 2 cars, which would include the 2 door, 4 door Lemans/Tempests, etc. (possibly even convertible?)

Not sure what the daily rate was on cars produced a day, probably less than 1000?
So it may have been a day or so apart?

John V could probably explain this a whole lot better than I am doing.

[peppergreen]

Thanks John,

Those cowl tag numbers were assigned when the car entered the assembly line? When was the VIN created?

3 individual numbers a car? VIN, Cowl Tag number, and the PPA number on the PHS sheet?

Wow, lots of identification!!

Remember seeing a pic of 66-67 GTO's on the assembly line, would think those cars would have a sequential assembly line number.....the PPA number or cowl tag. I assume the VIN was assigned prior to assembly line. PPA or cowl tag would probally identify if two cars were close in assembly line?

Cool info from you guys.

[peppergreen]

Pics of the two cowl tags

[johnta1]

I may be wrong and OPH is right.


I'm used to the Firebirds.
The VIN at the plant may be sequential of all the vehicles at the plant.

3 individual numbers a car? VIN, Cowl Tag number, and the PPA number on the PHS sheet?

Yes, and probably the only thing that can put them all together is the PHS.
(don't think they have any info on body number though)

The PPA was from accounting/sales basically starting the ball rolling.
The cowl tag was basically for Fisher plant only, but is useful for the info on it.
The VIN is a legal requirement to ID the whole car together.

The engine unit number/motor unit number also is a number for the engine.

[peppergreen]

Useful info, thanks for posting guys.

[Half-Inch Stud]

do both Judges have the same color firewall? Non-black?

[Keith Seymore]

Originally Posted by peppergreen

3 individual numbers a car? VIN, Cowl Tag number, and the PPA number on the PHS sheet?

Wow, lots of identification!!

More than that -

The process starts with the Dealer order number.

Then, once the order is delivered to the plant a PVI (Primary Vehicle Identifier) and/or CSN (carrier sequence number) is established. These are the numbers that will track the build through the body shop and paint shop - because there is no VIN at that point. There are still opportunities to re-shuffle the sequence until the cars come out of paint and into general assembly, due to material availability, model/option mix and even damage to the body during production . Once they go into GA you are committed and the sequence will not change.

The VIN is established and applied at that point (when the car comes out of paint and into GA). The point here is that the VIN is not the primary tracking number while the car is in the assembly plant (the PVI or CSN prior to GA; the GA build sequence number becomes dominant after that) and is really just another "part" to be installed, like an emissions sticker or a tire pressure label.

K

[peppergreen]

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do both Judges have the same color firewall? Non-black?


Yeah, both black, mine is 'fresh' black........doing the i-phone lean under the light of open garage.