[Jim Robertson]

If it is not obvious, many folks are watching this build and are taking notes on parts selection and their ability to withstand the heat of battle. Thanks for posting.

Keep going, it will be great.

[RAIV-Z]

Originally Posted by Jim Yanoski

Do yourself a favor and buy the 9.5" the first time! Lamb stocks and Tom's make 3.89 9.5 gears I don't know about anything higher. Also make sure the rear housing is clearanced for the 9.5 ring gear before you clean it all up after the fab work. 9.5 gears will not fit in a stock 9" opening..........Jim

After talking with you, Travis and my chassis guy, I've settled on 3.89 rear gears. At this power level a 9.5 ring gear wasn’t necessarily required, but for an additional $234 I figured it was worth it.

Good site for RPM, Speed, Gear Ratio Calculator
http://vexer.com/automotive-tools/speed-rpm-calculator

[RAIV-Z]

Originally Posted by Jim Robertson

If it is not obvious, many folks are watching this build and are taking notes on parts selection and their ability to withstand the heat of battle. Thanks for posting.

Keep going, it will be great.

Thanks Jim, I appreciate the support.
On a positive note, the quality of the chassis work is great.

[RAIV-Z]

Originally Posted by cgeise

Take a look at the picture -- If those are Manley springs the end with the champher should be up - -unlike yours - that would contribute to your spring retainer issue - although prob will not fix it --and Id say goodby to those rockers --

Based on the list of part numbers Lynn sent, the currently installed springs should be Manley Nextek 221424-16.

Dual, 1.640 in. Outside Diameter, 647 lbs./in. Rate, 1.070 in. Coil Bind Height
"[email protected] lift , [email protected] lift

The rockers will be going away to hopefully live a long productive life inside a basically stock engine. They will be sold to help finance rocker shafts and additional required machine work. Watch for them in the "Other Pontiac Parts for Sale section".

The 2 spare valve springs I have pictured below don't have chamfers on either end.

[65nss4spdGTO]

Originally Posted by RAIV-Z

Based on the list of part numbers Lynn sent, the currently installed springs should be Manley Nextek 221424-16.

Dual, 1.640 in. Outside Diameter, 647 lbs./in. Rate, 1.070 in. Coil Bind Height
"[email protected] lift , [email protected] lift

The rockers will be going away to hopefully live a long productive life inside a basically stock engine. They will be sold to help finance rocker shafts and additional required machine work. Watch for them in the "Other Pontiac Parts for Sale section".

The 2 spare valve springs I have pictured below don't have chamfers on either end.

Ed,

What are you doing about rocker shafts? I need to build a set for one of my engine builds.

Calvin Hill
Hill Performance
708-250-7420

[RAIV-Z]

Originally Posted by 65nss4spdGTO

Ed,

What are you doing about rocker shafts? I need to build a set for one of my engine builds.

Calvin Hill
Hill Performance
708-250-7420

Hi Calvin,

After cleaning up some chit, I was going to send them to Crower and have a stainless steel set made. The rocker stud locations have been moved on my RA-Vs. Are you making your own?

[LMSRACER]

RAIV-Z/ED,

Have those heads gone through a heat treatment/hardening process after all of that welding? I sure hope so....Maybe it's already been mentioned..I'm not sure.

I've been quiet through this entire thread, simply because it's none of my business. I was quiet when you posted the picture of the metal shavings packed in behind your balancer bolt, I was quiet when you posted the pictures of the clearanced rocker arms, BUT, WTF is the deal with the welding/rocker stud relocation process? That workmanship looks like SHEET......

I now fully understand your position. If this work was all done at BES, that frankly is hard to believe. Something seems screwy !!!!

All of that aside, it appears as though the machined surface of the cylinder head that the rocker studs/guide plates tighten against, could use a couple of more passes on the mill. Since you're going with a rocker shaft system, changing the height of this surface in relation to the valve stem tip location can be accounted for in the engineering of the rocker shafts. If, of course there is enough material left in the cylinder head to ensure proper thread engagement for the rocker shaft base.

My

Good luck,
Larry S.


http://www.precisionautomotivespecialists.com

[RAIV-Z]

Originally Posted by LMSRACER

RAIV-Z/ED,

Have those heads gone through a heat treatment/hardening process after all of that welding? I sure hope so....Maybe it's already been mentioned..I'm not sure.

I've been quiet through this entire thread, simply because it's none of my business. I was quiet when you posted the picture of the metal shavings packed in behind your balancer bolt, I was quiet when you posted the pictures of the clearanced rocker arms, BUT, WTF is the deal with the welding/rocker stud relocation process? That workmanship looks like SHEET......

I now fully understand your position. If this work was all done at BES, that frankly is hard to believe. Something seems screwy !!!!

All of that aside, it appears as though the machined surface of the cylinder head that the rocker studs/guide plates tighten against, could use a couple of more passes on the mill. Since you're going with a rocker shaft system, changing the height of this surface in relation to the valve stem tip location can be accounted for in the engineering of the rocker shafts. If, of course there is enough material left in the cylinder head to ensure proper thread engagement for the rocker shaft base.

My

Good luck,
Larry S.


http://www.precisionautomotivespecialists.com

According to Tony, the heads were not heat treated after relocating the rocker studs as it would have screwed up the port work and valve job.

[LMSRACER]

Ed,

That is absolutely true. The heat required to properly heat treat the head is also high enough that the valve seats and valve guides would more than likely fall out of the head. That's why the welding should be done first.

In the last group of photos that you posted of the cylinder heads, I noticed that in the third photo there appears to be a witness mark from the slot in the guide plate. The slot under the rocker stud appears to have made an impression in the surface of the cylinder head. That's nothing but bad.

I've kept quiet because it's hard to have positive/uplifting information in a situation like this. For example, the posts that I've just made aren't being followed up by a simple fix or words of encouragement. It just plain sucks.

Utilizing a shaft system will help to eliminate the possibility of "Thread Pullout" but you'll still need to keep an eye on it. During the shaft system's installation process, be very aware of the "Feel" that you experience as you torque the base to the cylinder head. Torque each fastener slowly and in multiple stages. You can tell alot by the feel.

I wish that I had a solution and/or a sure fire fix, but I don't. You'll just have to be diligent with your inspection process.

Here's my e-mail: [email protected]
If I can be of help, let me know.
Larry S.

http://www.precisionautomotivespecialists.com

[RAIV-Z]

Originally Posted by LMSRACER

Ed,

That is absolutely true. The heat required to properly heat treat the head is also high enough that the valve seats and valve guides would more than likely fall out of the head. That's why the welding should be done first.

In the last group of photos that you posted of the cylinder heads, I noticed that in the third photo there appears to be a witness mark from the slot in the guide plate. The slot under the rocker stud appears to have made an impression in the surface of the cylinder head. That's nothing but bad.

I've kept quiet because it's hard to have positive/uplifting information in a situation like this. For example, the posts that I've just made aren't being followed up by a simple fix or words of encouragement. It just plain sucks.

Utilizing a shaft system will help to eliminate the possibility of "Thread Pullout" but you'll still need to keep an eye on it. During the shaft system's installation process, be very aware of the "Feel" that you experience as you torque the base to the cylinder head. Torque each fastener slowly and in multiple stages. You can tell alot by the feel.

I wish that I had a solution and/or a sure fire fix, but I don't. You'll just have to be diligent with your inspection process.

Here's my e-mail: [email protected]
If I can be of help, let me know.
Larry S.

http://www.precisionautomotivespecialists.com

I appreciate all feedback positive or negative, the last thing I want to have happen is for something to fail at 180+ MPH. What scares the ***** out of me is that at this point I've only removed the valve covers and damper.

I’m willing to look at ANY\ALL options to fix these issues in order to guarantee this engine will safely make the power I paid for it to make. Based on the original design goal, this engine was supposed to make 1600hp on pump gas, with air-air intercoolers. According to Turbonetics “Dave Austin”, we’ll be in the 20lb boost range assuming the engine made 751hp normally aspirated. Normally aspirated this engine made 660hp. The engine is NOT dry decked and based on the information I have, it is not “O” ringed either.

[jdw_poncho]

Ed
I've used hundreds of these inserts for thread repair in aluminum parts at work. They allow a much larger thread to be used and might get you back into more "virgin" materail. Im not sure how much welding was done but it doesnt look like they had to move them very far? I know a lot of heads use helicoils but if you have the room you could possibly use these.

I guess I forgotten you didnt have orings in the heads. Any thoughts about changing that?

Have you pulled the pan or cut the oil filter open?

http://www.mcmaster.com/#standard-th...nserts/=i9gqnt

[R 70 Judge]

First off... why the hell are you having to rebuild an engine you just paid to have built?

Second... I would be effing PISSED if I saw crap like that in my freshly built engine

[RAIV-Z]

Originally Posted by LMSRACER

RAIV-Z/ED,

Have those heads gone through a heat treatment/hardening process after all of that welding? I sure hope so....Maybe it's already been mentioned..I'm not sure.

I've been quiet through this entire thread, simply because it's none of my business. I was quiet when you posted the picture of the metal shavings packed in behind your balancer bolt, I was quiet when you posted the pictures of the clearanced rocker arms, BUT, WTF is the deal with the welding/rocker stud relocation process? That workmanship looks like SHEET......

I now fully understand your position. If this work was all done at BES, that frankly is hard to believe. Something seems screwy !!!!

All of that aside, it appears as though the machined surface of the cylinder head that the rocker studs/guide plates tighten against, could use a couple of more passes on the mill. Since you're going with a rocker shaft system, changing the height of this surface in relation to the valve stem tip location can be accounted for in the engineering of the rocker shafts. If, of course there is enough material left in the cylinder head to ensure proper thread engagement for the rocker shaft base.

My

Good luck,
Larry S.


http://www.precisionautomotivespecialists.com

You would have thought that if someone took the time to relocate the rocker studs in order to clean up valve train alignment, it would have been lined up perfect when they were done.

The heads definitely look like they should have had a few more passes on the mill. I don’t think there will be an issue with thread engagement with rocker stud holes on the exhaust side, the intake side will need to be measured.
The intake rocker studs protrude into the intake port ~.100, and the rocker stud are too short for this application. The rocker trunion was riding on about 1/4 inch of thread.

What depth would be required for proper thread engagement?

[mysticmissle]

BES did all the fitting and assembly?

[RAIV-Z]

Originally Posted by LMSRACER

Ed,

That is absolutely true. The heat required to properly heat treat the head is also high enough that the valve seats and valve guides would more than likely fall out of the head. That's why the welding should be done first.

In the last group of photos that you posted of the cylinder heads, I noticed that in the third photo there appears to be a witness mark from the slot in the guide plate. The slot under the rocker stud appears to have made an impression in the surface of the cylinder head. That's nothing but bad.

I've kept quiet because it's hard to have positive/uplifting information in a situation like this. For example, the posts that I've just made aren't being followed up by a simple fix or words of encouragement. It just plain sucks.

Utilizing a shaft system will help to eliminate the possibility of "Thread Pullout" but you'll still need to keep an eye on it. During the shaft system's installation process, be very aware of the "Feel" that you experience as you torque the base to the cylinder head. Torque each fastener slowly and in multiple stages. You can tell alot by the feel.

I wish that I had a solution and/or a sure fire fix, but I don't. You'll just have to be diligent with your inspection process.

Here's my e-mail: [email protected]
If I can be of help, let me know.
Larry S.

http://www.precisionautomotivespecialists.com

Hi Larry,

If these marks are actually witness marks indicating soft aluminum, can it be fixed? Next time I drop by the chassis shop, I’ll make sure the area is clean and take a good look at it.

[RAIV-Z]

Originally Posted by mysticmissle

BES did all the fitting and assembly?

That's what I was told.

[RAIV-Z]

Originally Posted by jdw_poncho

Ed
I've used hundreds of these inserts for thread repair in aluminum parts at work. They allow a much larger thread to be used and might get you back into more "virgin" materail. Im not sure how much welding was done but it doesnt look like they had to move them very far? I know a lot of heads use helicoils but if you have the room you could possibly use these.

I guess I forgotten you didnt have orings in the heads. Any thoughts about changing that?

Have you pulled the pan or cut the oil filter open?

http://www.mcmaster.com/#standard-th...nserts/=i9gqnt

I was looking at these inserts. I'd also like to add thread inserts on the exhaust bolt holes.
http://www.timesert.com/

Yes, I'm seriously looking at O-rings and dry deck. I haven't taked the pan off yet, the oil filter new, I believe it was replaced after the last dyno session.

[LMSRACER]

Originally Posted by RAIV-Z

I was looking at these inserts. I'd also like to add thread inserts on the exhaust bolt holes.
http://www.timesert.com/

Yes, I'm seriously looking at O-rings and dry deck. I haven't taked the pan off yet, the oil filter new, I believe it was replaced after the last dyno session.

Good afternoon Ed,
This is the approved method of repairing the cylinder head bolt holes in the Cadillac Northstar V8 Block and the Oldsmobile Aurora V8 Block. The engine's develop coolant consumption/cylinder head gasket failure issues due to a loss of "Cylinder Head Clamping". The threads in the block pull out and the cylinder head bolts break.

In your situation, be sure that there is adequate material in the cylinder heads for milling the surfaces true, drilling-tapping & threading for these inserts. There may be coolant passages close to the surface. If you sonic check the head surface and find that there is ample material/thickness for this repair, then, even if you were to break into coolant that wouldn't be a problem. Many cylinder heads have rocker studs that penetrate/protrude into the coolant passages. It matters most that there is ample materiall thickness for "Full" thread engagement of the threaded insert.

If you go with this product, explain to the folks at timesert what you intend to do and the available thickness of the material. Let them guide you in the correct procedure.

I've personally performed the repairs on the Northstar V8 Blocks with the approved/expensive timesert kit. It's slick and fairly simple, once the engine is out of the vehicle and disassembled that is.

One more thing to consider is that the timeserts are designed to be "Thin Walled" and therefore the size of the hole that excepts them isn't much larger than the holes that you already have. For that reason, a "Thicker Wall" insert may be of more benefit. Possibly, timesert makes such an animal....

Good Luck,
Larry S.


http://www.precisionautomotivespecialists.com

[RAIV-Z]

Originally Posted by LMSRACER

Good afternoon Ed,
This is the approved method of repairing the cylinder head bolt holes in the Cadillac Northstar V8 Block and the Oldsmobile Aurora V8 Block. The engine's develop coolant consumption/cylinder head gasket failure issues due to a loss of "Cylinder Head Clamping". The threads in the block pull out and the cylinder head bolts break.

In your situation, be sure that there is adequate material in the cylinder heads for milling the surfaces true, drilling-tapping & threading for these inserts. There may be coolant passages close to the surface. If you sonic check the head surface and find that there is ample material/thickness for this repair, then, even if you were to break into coolant that wouldn't be a problem. Many cylinder heads have rocker studs that penetrate/protrude into the coolant passages. It matters most that there is ample materiall thickness for "Full" thread engagement of the threaded insert.

If you go with this product, explain to the folks at timesert what you intend to do and the available thickness of the material. Let them guide you in the correct procedure.

I've personally performed the repairs on the Northstar V8 Blocks with the approved/expensive timesert kit. It's slick and fairly simple, once the engine is out of the vehicle and disassembled that is.

One more thing to consider is that the timeserts are designed to be "Thin Walled" and therefore the size of the hole that excepts them isn't much larger than the holes that you already have. For that reason, a "Thicker Wall" insert may be of more benefit. Possibly, timesert makes such an animal....

Good Luck,
Larry S.


http://www.precisionautomotivespecialists.com

Good point about the TimeCert "Thin Walled" design, there are a few other types of thread inserts which might work.

http://fulltorque.com/fft.htm
http://www.repairengineering.com/keensert.html

[mechanickeith]

Timecerts is the kit I used on a certain set of highly modified Wensler Superchiefs thats in a FED on 96% nitro. We had issues with the very end rocker stand studs pulling out. Was not an issue with the inner ones as each inner stud had one on each side for support. But the end ones was a different story. After the inserts were installed, no more issues. IIRC,,I used the deapest insert available for the stud used, .750.