[paul s.]

X2. The compression test(s) should be performed at the same temp with the throttle wide open. Temperature differences will skew the results.

Perhaps I missed it; Did you try advancing the timing to see if your throttle response improved? That was just a troubleshooting device for low rpm so at that point, you don't need to worry about the total timing, you don't need to rev to 3,000 rpm. If you have lower compression than you think, you will want to use more initial timing and then, yes, you will want to limit your total.


Good luck

[Verdoro 68]

Got it buttoned back up last night and fired it up this morning. It's a big improvement over where it was. It feels like there's more torque on the bottom end now.

When I first fired it up and checked the timing it was at 16 degrees initial. When I pulled the engine apart it was at 12 initial. This might be a silly question, but was this due to the +4 on the cam or coincidence.

I dialed it back to 10 degrees, but I think I could bump it back up to 12. I'll keep experimenting with tuning but I think I'm on the right track.

[gtofreek]

The distributor is driver off the cam, so yes, advancing the cam, will advance the timing.

[J.T.]

A quick question, the 2 & 4 degree off set key were brought up before. The only ones I have see are the Mr. Gasket short keys. Would these be used for the timing chain gear and a short straight key used for the harmonic balancer?

[Skip Fix]

There is a set of cam keys for Mopars that have more selection.

[Verdoro 68]

Originally Posted by gtofreek

The distributor is driver off the cam, so yes, advancing the cam, will advance the timing.

What was throwing me was that I didn't change the position of the cam sprocket which would change the distributor, I just moved the crank. I suppose everything works together though

The converter flashes to 2k. The engine wakes up around 2500 so the seed has been planted to move up to the 10" Continental or have my 13" restalled.

I put a fresh set of plugs in and drove it about 100 miles yesterday. Next step is to follow up on the 2/4 cylinders and see if they're still oily.

I very much appreciate all the help and suggestions so far.

[grandville455]

Originally Posted by Verdoro 68

What was throwing me was that I didn't change the position of the cam sprocket which would change the distributor, I just moved the crank. I suppose everything works together though

The converter flashes to 2k. The engine wakes up around 2500 so the seed has been planted to move up to the 10" Continental or have my 13" restalled.

I put a fresh set of plugs in and drove it about 100 miles yesterday. Next step is to follow up on the 2/4 cylinders and see if they're still oily.

I very much appreciate all the help and suggestions so far.

So is it a animal now? ... Big difference?

[Verdoro 68]

Originally Posted by grandville455

So is it a animal now? ... Big difference?

There's a substantial difference, but it's not a tire shredder yet.

I pulled the #4 plug this morning and it's starting to become fouled so I need to figure out what's causing that problem. I'm sure #2 is in the same state. I'm not getting any smoke on startup, the engine doesn't feel like it's missing and it doesn't use any oil as far as I can tell so I'm not really sure what's going on.

The PCV valve isn't clogged and doesn't seem excessively oily, but I might try replacing it just to rule it out. It seems fishy to me that only the 2/4 plugs are getting fouled and those two are shared with the PCV.

I'll pick up a leak down tester this weekend and see if it provides any clues. Compression was fine on those two cylinders so I suspect everything will be fine.

[dmac]

Originally Posted by Verdoro 68

What was throwing me was that I didn't change the position of the cam sprocket which would change the distributor, I just moved the crank. I suppose everything works together though

The converter flashes to 2k. The engine wakes up around 2500 so the seed has been planted to move up to the 10" Continental or have my 13" restalled.

I put a fresh set of plugs in and drove it about 100 miles yesterday. Next step is to follow up on the 2/4 cylinders and see if they're still oily.

I very much appreciate all the help and suggestions so far.

When you moved the crank, the pulley with the timing marks moved. I am trying to think whether you really changed the spark timing, or if it just looks like you did because the pulley is in a different position. My brain can't quite handle that much thinking though.

[70pontiaction]

When you re-install the crank gear to advance the cam the timing marks on the balancer DON'T move - just the gear inside the timing cover moves in relation to the crankshaft.

The fact that the timing moved exactly 4 degrees tells you that the cam is advanced that same 4 degrees.

I had a stock 1970 GTO 400 years ago with the RAIII 301/313 cam in it. We installed a 4 degree keyway to advance the cam when we installed it, because the GTO only had 3.23 gears and we wanted to pump up the bottom end. The rest of the engine was stock except for Thorley headers. And we DID install an HO Racing kit in the qjet. Stock distributor with lighter springs at 15 degrees initial timing.

With a 4spd, no posi 3.23s and LR50x15 TA Radials it ran a best of 13.85@103 in a big heavy 1970 GTO at 4800 ft shifting at 5500RPMs.

I've driven and ridden in several other RAIII 301/313 cammed GTOs with the cam straight up and they had considerably less power down low.

Finally lost that motor to a FRAM filter.........haven't used one since.

I've installed every cam since then 2 degrees advanced just to make up for chain slop. Never degreed one yet.

Verdoro: Glad the 4 degrees made a difference - hope you can figure out the other issues.

[chiphead]

Where on the intake does the PCV connect? If it's attached to an individual runner, than you may see more oil on that plug. Typically I try to connect the PCV to a carb port or the plenum so it spreads the vapor around. Are 2 and 4 or the same side of a dual-plane or not?

Honestly, that amount of oil looks like more than would come from a normal PCV setup. I would do leakdown tests, and check that head for signs of oil pooling around the valves. Worst case is damaged rings so I would try to test for that first. If it was one cylinder doing it, I would think OK, a broken ring. But the poor oil control on two adjacent cylinders not on the same rod journal has me scratching my head. Check to make sure all the valve seals are present and installed properly.

I'd be worried more about the plugs than the performance at this point. If the motor is hurt, getting more power out of it will aggravate whatever is going wrong.

[Bill Eveland]

The short Mr Gasket keys are for the cam gear only, that what I used to degree in my Crower cam. In my case and most Crowers from what i've read here I needed the 2 degree key to advance 4 degrees.

Originally Posted by J.T.

A quick question, the 2 & 4 degree off set key were brought up before. The only ones I have see are the Mr. Gasket short keys. Would these be used for the timing chain gear and a short straight key used for the harmonic balancer?

[just501]

Any chance your valve cover may be leaking at the bolt above #2&4? Just a thought.

[Verdoro 68]

Originally Posted by chiphead

Where on the intake does the PCV connect? If it's attached to an individual runner, than you may see more oil on that plug. Typically I try to connect the PCV to a carb port or the plenum so it spreads the vapor around. Are 2 and 4 or the same side of a dual-plane or not?

Honestly, that amount of oil looks like more than would come from a normal PCV setup. I would do leakdown tests, and check that head for signs of oil pooling around the valves. Worst case is damaged rings so I would try to test for that first. If it was one cylinder doing it, I would think OK, a broken ring. But the poor oil control on two adjacent cylinders not on the same rod journal has me scratching my head. Check to make sure all the valve seals are present and installed properly.

I'd be worried more about the plugs than the performance at this point. If the motor is hurt, getting more power out of it will aggravate whatever is going wrong.

I think you are probably right about the oil. After 100 miles the plug was fogged pretty good.

The PCV is connected factory style from the valley pan to the #2 intake runner on the factory manifold.

Like I said, this engine has very few miles on it - a few thousand at most. My thought at this point are bad valve stem seals. The heads were machined for the positive seals so it's possible there's an issue. There's not really an easy way to check that without removing the springs is there?

The valve cover isn't leaking. I wish it were that simple.

[gtofreek]

Originally Posted by Verdoro 68

I think you are probably right about the oil. After 100 miles the plug was fogged pretty good.

The PCV is connected factory style from the valley pan to the #2 intake runner on the factory manifold.

Like I said, this engine has very few miles on it - a few thousand at most. My thought at this point are bad valve stem seals. The heads were machined for the positive seals so it's possible there's an issue. There's not really an easy way to check that without removing the springs is there?

The valve cover isn't leaking. I wish it were that simple.

Generally, if the valve seals are leaking, you will have oily buildup on the back side of the valve, NOT all the way up the runner. Look in the intake and see if #2 and 4 runners are oily too. If so, your sucking oil from the PCV valve. Otherwise, you would have to have a cam with a ton of overlap to get that much reversion.

[CROCIE JR]

Read all the posts. I think you need to get the timing adv. all in by about NOW. This is a very similar combo to a 389 + .060 I built 25 yrs ago. Hc-01 cam and 8.4:1. Headers, tri-power, 13inch, 3.23s. 1 single light spring (gold) on the dist. Adv. came in at 1300 rpm. No ping. 12.7 AFR. 36 total. Moving the cam around with an engine hurt by manifolds wont do to much for the seat of your pants. Although a 108 icl is a good move. I have tested this stuff on a dyno, with a low VE engine, and the cam phasing doesnt yeild the kind of performance you would expect. You need to build cyl. presure quickly. Go to the manifold directly with the vac. adv. Dont mess with the possibly rich carb untill you do these mods. Rich is safe in these types of tests. BTW. the 64' GTO with the above engine went 12.87/105 @ 3280 with me in it. It would roast the tires from a 10mph roll (305/50/15 Euro T/As) 1800 convertor flash. 348 HP at 5700 and 395 lb/ft at 3400. Uncorrected on the old H-O Racing Go-Power Dyno. May want to shorten the curve up a bit with a custom stop bushing in the dist. My engine had 22 deg. initial and 36 total. Plus the 14 deg. in the vac adv. Thats 50 deg. at cruise. At idle my 389 had 36 deg. with manifold vac to the adv. canister. Made for a little bit of a nervous idle. But, I was looking for cylinder presure, NOW.

[Verdoro 68]

I was digging in to do the leak down test this afternoon and I think I found where the oil on #2 and #4 are coming from. There was a c-shaped piece of valve stem seal sitting by the valve spring on #4 and it's pretty clear that seal is trashed. The #2 intake seal is in worse condition.

It's kind of a pain, but I'm comfortable doing seal replacements in the car since I've done them on my '04. Does anyone know the size I should look for?






BTW, for you sharp-eyed viewers the black mark on the pushrod is left over Sharpie from when I broke in the engine to make sure they were spinning.

[lust4speed]

The damage looks like you had retainer to seal contact. It'd be a good idea to measure the open clearance once you have things apart. Also, do you have enough clearance between the retainer and rocker arm when the valve is closed? Looks pretty close in the picture. I'd also guess that if one or two seals were crushed, the others might also be ready to fail.

Your stems could have been cut for several different style stems, with .530" probably being the most common and .500" next in line.You will need to measure before ordering out any.

[Verdoro 68]

I'll check things out. I agree, it seems unusual that only two would fail. I'll bet others aren't far behind. The springs are matched to the cam, the retainers and keepers are stock as are the rockers so I'm not sure how things could be off that far.

Here's a pic of the #2 intake.

[Formulas]

Hard to definately tell by a pic but it looks like i see the guide exposed under the seal, meaning possibly the seal wasnt fully seated on the guide or the guides were left too tall in effect diminishing total valve lift that your heads will accept..

Something to check anyways... i always buzz the top of my guides so when the seals are fully seated they are touching the top of the head