[gtofreek]

More pics.

[marks73ta]

Thanks for the pics Paul. I was starting to think buying all that stuff was just a dream, LOL. That's going to be one stout Mo' Fo' short block. Starting to get real. I sure wished the car was at the point that I could put it in and fire it up. Good seeing the parts again. Oh, I noticed just one rod. Should make the rotating assemble really light with only one hey???

8^) Mark L

[gtofreek]

Yeah, I had them off to the side and noticed they weren't in the pic so I put one in there because of room to fit in pic.

[BruceWilkie]

Originally Posted by marks73ta

(In another thread I explained how I found a '59 389 for sale with '61 540306 Super Duty heads.)
I wanted to bring the Cat to the Saturday BOP races and car show this Saturday. Finally got the ladder bar front mount crossmember done and now I can tack it into the car so I can roll it around. I think I told you about the 389 I found. '59 389 with first generation 540306 Super Duty heads. I reassembled the 389 enough to use as a mock up motor for the Cat, includng the full rear motor plate/adaptor and the Lakewood bell housing. I also installed the Dearborn toploader 3 speed for the first time. Everything went together well except I still need an early bellhousing mounted starter to mock that up. I had one and sent it to Bruce Wilke thinking I would ever need one. This is pics of the crossmember and the rearend/ladder bars all ready to go in.
Got to get it in tomorrow (Friday) so I can get it on the trailer for Saturday. Hope I still have time to get the front end assembled and on.

Mark L

Mark, check the starter bolt pattern... early pattern is straight across pilot centerline while 61-63 is offset.(easier install). IMI has a mini starter for 61-63 pattern. The starter pilot is the same either starter so you can re-drill bolt pattern.

60's-70's Olds Toronado/Cad Eldorado used a straight across bolt pattern with same 3.25 pilot. RobbMC has mini starter that fits that pattern and has infinate clocking ability. Also that starter allows nuts on both bolts easing install.

Its possible a chevy six starter nose fits with bolt pattern change on adapter but you'd have to check. (GM Delco starter noses can be swapped.)

I stumbled on a mopar starter at my neighbors with 3.25 pilot and bolt hole pattern is offset further outboard from block. Not sure if its from his stash of early hemis or if its from newer mopar. (I'm researching and need to measure a couple more things but looks like it would work and be even easier to fit/install)

Keep in mind pinion to ring gear clearance is pretty much dictated by accurracy of pilot location and some of that is up to how accurate the adapter is relative to block dowling and crank centerline. Clearance should be .020" - .030".
Pinion retracted needs to be more than 1/8" and engaged it cant be too deep (or too shallow). (a used starter's wear marks will give you a good indication what your looking for with engagement).

All easier than this sounds Mark!!!

PS I found a "modern" Pontiac hi torque starter in my stash. I'm swapping starter noses!

[Engine-Ear]

Paul/gtofreek - I admire the clean well-lit build area...also, your pics inspire a hunnert questions, which I won't axe here because it'd be a hijack (a himark?).

Thumbs up to bota youse gise.

[gtofreek]

Originally Posted by Engine-Ear

Paul/gtofreek - I admire the clean well-lit build area...also, your pics inspire a hunnert questions, which I won't axe here because it'd be a hijack (a himark?).

Thumbs up to bota youse gise.

Thanks! If you have questions about this particular build, go ahead and ask, I don't think Mark will mind. Or just post your question in the street or race section.

[BruceWilkie]

BTW nice work there Paul... those early blocks are pretty stout. I especially like the depth of the main saddles and smooth cast radius at the piston undercuts vs the machined("hacking") under cut on newer blocks. Thick castings too!

Also...I checked a regular 60's/70's mopar starter today and register is only @2-13/16" so one at neighbors must be from one of his old hemi's. But if you ever make a 55-60 bell adapter the "modern" mopar starter is a good candidate as the mount bolts are comfortably outboard and accessible, yet starter is more compact than a Delco.(late 80's v8 Mopar uses a very torquey mini starter with same fit).
I may re-do my adapter.

[marks73ta]

Hey Matt, go ahead and ask. May be something of use for everyone. Mark L

[gtofreek]

Here are some more pics. Installing the graphite rope seal, & main caps. Note dowel pin protrusion into main caps. These are longer Ford cam dowel pins. Oh, no, Ford parts in the Pontiac!

[gtofreek]

Here are pics of the bearing tuneup. The first pic is of a bearing after I lightly filed the back with a fine file to show high spots. If you look at the outside edges, you will notice they are shiny and black right next to them. The black is a low spot and the shiny is a high spot. The high spot on the outside edge is roughly sticking up about .001". This pushes the bearing into the crank when assembled. If you were to assemble this without doing anything, turn the engine over a few times and remove the rod cap, you would see the outside edges of the bearing would be shiny from rubbing on the crank. By filing the high spots away, this does not happen and the bearings are much happier. After filing I sand the back real nice with fine wet/dry sandpaper and scotchbrite the bearing surface. The same holds true for the main bearings, however, the back side of the flange bearing has a protrusion of the back out near the flange. This protrusion is about .150"-.200" wide, coming out from the flange. This is caused from manufacturing processes. The protrusion also shoves the outside edge of the bearing into the crank. There again when you run a file across the back, you can see what I'm talking about. I file this protrusion down flush with the rest of the back and file good over the stamped numbers as they have high spots around them also. Then I sand it good.

Everyone says you have to run oil restrictors in the lifter bores to keep from burning up the mains, but I do this and never use restrictors and never have bearing problems. I have large 455 journal engines out there running over 7000 rpm for years also, so I believe this mod helps tremendously for bearing life and cooling.

By cleaning up the back and getting rid of the high spots, it gives more contact area with the rod and the bearing can get rid of heat more efficiently. Also, I believe the fine scratch's on the back also help it grab ahold of the rod. Doing this only reduces the thickness of the bearing by .0001". I have never had a bearing failure in any of the hundreds of engines I have done this to.

The last pic of the thrust bearing shows the mod I do to feed pressurized oil to the rear side of the bearing[the chamfer on one side, at the parting line]. The group of rod bearings shows the holes we had to bore in the lower bearings for the aluminum rod caps. The group of main bearings are done and ready to install.

[gtofreek]

Oh, by the way Mark, that is just black primer, I didn't want it to rust since it was shot peened and bare iron.

Also, 2 1/2 HOURS standing in front of the solvent tank tuning up those bearings! One aching back from that! My hands and forearms are all dried out and itchy too! Hint, hint. You know where I'm going with this? YOU OWE ME BIG TIME PAL! Oh, what's that you say? Why sure, that's a great idea! I think I will accept a ride in this car for payment of my aching back and dried out, itchy hands! Hey, you guys heard him, your my witnesses. He can't get out of it now. ;^]

[marks73ta]

Good pics and great commentary. I'm an engine assembler, you're a builder. These are details that I would miss doing it myself. Paul in post #609, I see several numbers stamped in the bottom pan rails. Back by the rear mains I see 140 lbs--Moly stamped there. Can you explain that please? Great seeing the progress. Mark L

[marks73ta]

If you don't mind, I'll let you drive it. Will that square us up??? I just hope that is soon. Thank you for all the extra effort. You have everything or do you need anything from me to finish it?

Mark

[marks73ta]

I spent the day getting the rearend all in and the front end back on (seat back inside too) for a show tomorrow. It was nice getting it on the trailer with real steering. Last couple of times I had to kick the front tires to steer it. Kinda embarresing at the car show.









Just some shots of the car.

Mark L

[gtofreek]

Those numbers are the torque for the ARP main studs. The 75 by the 110 is for the splayed outer bolts. All are with Moly lube. These torque specs are what I align honed it at and that is where the main housing bore becomes round and on size. If oil is used at those torque specs, the hole will not be round or on size.

[gtofreek]

Originally Posted by marks73ta

If you don't mind, I'll let you drive it. Will that square us up??? I just hope that is soon. Thank you for all the extra effort. You have everything or do you need anything from me to finish it?

Mark

Don't tempt me, I might just take you up on that offer! You bet it would! And then some. I think I am good on parts but I will double check on Monday. Just want this thing to haul some major ASS and live to REV about it.

What's the highest HP, stock block Pontiac engine to date anyway?

[vin63]

Originally Posted by marks73ta

I spent the day getting the rearend all in and the front end back on (seat back inside too) for a show tomorrow. It was nice getting it on the trailer with real steering.

Just some shots of the car.

Mark L

Looks great, Mark! Some additional motivation, or at least to think about at the Fall Pontiac event today...this would look and work much better in your car than on my mock up stand. Have a great time at Steve's Fall PBO event.

[taff2]

Mark,I've got a '59 block mounted starter you're welcome to,I think the shipping might cost you a bit though! What make are those ali rods? The reason I ask is that I used Brooks B2 (BBC) ali rods and had to lightly notch my '59 block at the strengthening rib and base of the bores for clearance. Paul cryo'd the rods for me by the way,before shipping them over.
Paul,I do the same mod to the thrust bearing as you do but only Scotchbrite the backs of the bearing shells,I also fitted longer dowels for the main caps,nice clean work you do.

[BruceWilkie]

Paul I think Marty P was over 1600HP back in 93 with a 67 400 block.

Vin63 you got to be close???

Steve B is at ???

Brad Spidel(rip) ran an Armasteel crank to 1200 or so. Think his block failed not the crank.

IMO the 59/60 blocks are way beefier than any of the 400's or 455's The RAV and 455SD do have a better valley and are similar to these early blocks but I dont think they have the thick wall casting.

I'm going to fill the valley between the lifter bores with the slow dryin JB Weld similar to Len Cavalrys EMC motor(he used regular epoxy). If that breaks out a lifter bore a steel brace wouldnt fare any better IMO. Excellent properties...this stuff dont start going soft till well over 400 degrees(near 500) and has outstanding oil/fuel resistance and great adhesion. (kind of expensive...the largest qty is 10oz Industroweld. The 2 oz JBWeld would get even pricier usually around $7.00 a pkg.. JB wont sell in bulk) Still IMO beats fitting a brace that when tightened seems like a log splitter arrangement.

Thanks for the bearing tips Paul. Some guys notch the thrust faces. I just bevel the parting line there, but like your "oil passage" chamfer, I'll incorporate both. What brand bearings you using??? I seem to have missed the brand of rings too?

Hope Mark can get this beast on a dyno. MartyP had smaller turbos iirc 270ish heads and ran 38 psi 7800 rpm on alky. Bigger heads, intercooled, bigger turbos, should make those numbers on gas at lower compression, lower boost PSI, and lower RPM.

Hmmm...Marty had a billet crank. Marks is forged... VIN63 has run NITRO on a cast 400 N crank!!! SEE what she can make at 6000 RPM Mark!

[gtofreek]

Bruce, the rings are Akerly and Childs. The top ring is a heat treated ductile iron ring. Basically, Akerly and Childs version of the "Hellfire" ring. Coated rings like inlaid moly or Plasma Moly or Chrome, can have issues with the face coating coming off in boosted or nitrous apps, so the best bet in boosted and nitrous apps is this ring or the Hellfire ring. It's heat treated and very tough, and can withstand the punishment these apps dish out with nothing to flake off the face.

The main bearings are Federal Mogul 113M. They are the 3/4 groove race bearing. Cleavite's main bearing offering is full groove and I don't like that, especially with an engine of this power level. The rod bearings are Cleavite 758 HN bearing. It is the race bearing but unfortunately, nobody makes a Pontiac rod bearing with a hole in it for aluminum rods. So we had to make a fixture out of an old rod cap to locate the lower bearing shell so we could get the hole in the right place. That was not very easy. Took a couple of hours, and a few bearing shells to get it right. Wasn't as easy as we thought it was going to be because of differences between the aluminum rod and the stock rod we made the fixture out of. Also, the old stock rod bearings were a different width so we had to do it mathmatically, but it wasn't working right. But hey, we have a bearing drilling fixture for Pontiac's now if anyone needs some holes drilled. Jeff made it, he is far better with the Bridgeport mill then I am. He can make about anything in that.

These main bearings already had oil pockets in the thrust face but they cut them all the way through. Seems to me they would have been better if they stopped short of going through, but hey, I never claimed to be a bearing engineer!

Billet cranks are nice because you can make anything you want with a chunk of billet stock, but most people agree that a good forged crank is stronger because the grain is not running in the same direction like a billet. Bottom line is, they can both break. For this 3 3/4" stroke, I think Mark made a good decision. It opened up a lot of money for other things.

Your welcome for the tips.