[boodlefoof]

All,

Quick question - does anyone make a front sump oil pan for a Pontiac 400? Preferably one that doesn't cost an arm and a leg... A quick look at Summit and some of the Pontiac-specific parts houses didn't turn up any.

I bolted together the 400 block and the 4L80e using the Trans-Dapt adapter yesterday. Today I went today to try and mock it in place in my '63 Tempest in order to fabricate the motor mounts/trans crossmember and to get an idea of the tunnel cuts that are going to need to be made. With the Heidt's front suspension crossmember, it looks like a rear sump pan (factory pan I had sitting around) would require me to sit the engine up pretty high.

Absent an available and inexpensive front sump pan, it looks like the pan will be another thing to add to my fabrication list!

[gtofreek]

They don't make front sump pans for Pontiac. The oil pump is in the rear so the sump needs to be in the rear also. If you fabricate one, you will need to remove the oil pump from the block, and use an external oil pump.

[boodlefoof]

Forgive my ignorance on the topic. This will be my first Pontiac engine build.

So, nobody makes a pump with a shallower installed depth that uses a pickup tube that can be routed to the front?

[Tom Vaught]

Nope. The Front Sump pans typically get close to steering linkage too.

They do not work that well when used on Ford Products either.

63 Tempests came with V-8 Engines so there are oil pans out there for this application.
The Bell-housing location will be in exactly the same location whether you used a manual
trans or a Auto Trans. Because you are trying to install a engine mounted transmission vs a factory rear mount transmission obviously a lot of sheet metal needs to be modified. Many, many people have already gone down this path (like MJM who posts in the Race section) who could explain to you what needed to be done on their applications.

Talk to them. Forget about the Front Sump Pan deal.

Tom Vaught

[tom s]

Really not sure what your trying to do?A pontiac V8 on a 63 tempest V8 X member clears a stock pan.If you use a 4 cyc X member it is real easy to fab mounts that attach to the 4cyc mounts and still clear the X member.I have always taken the sway bar off when doing a front trans setup.Tom

[boodlefoof]

I believe the problem I'm running into is that I don't have a stock crossmember. I've got a Heidt's Mustang II system in there that was installed by the previous owner (he never put an engine in it after that).

For the engine to sit in a normal (fore/aft) position in the engine bay, I'd have to move that crossmember or modify the pan... or, sit the bottom of the pan on top of the crossmember... resulting in hood interference.

Alternatively, I can move the engine back a few inches. But, then it looks like I'll be into the firewall...

[Steve Barcak]

There have been front pick up pans made for Pontiacs for over 50 years. They are used in vdrive marine applications. I have in my flat bottom. But, they also are much larger and would not fit in a car. They include an extended oil pump pick up and have not known anyone to have a problem with them, including myself.

I agree that you should not need such a thing for what you are doing and there is plenty of room to use a normal Pontiac pan. but, if there was an application where a front sump set up was needed, you could find a front oil pump pick up set up in the marine afternarket.
Hope this helps you.

[mechanickeith]

With the crossmember/front suspension setup you plan on using, you will probably have to cuy & move back the firewall to get the clearance that you need.

[Overkillphil]

Steve, what is the purpose of the front mount sump in a marine application? If it was for angle what is done about the flywheel?

[Bill Hanlon]

I'm not the boat (or any other kind of) expert, but I'll take a guess.

This is a V-drive drag boat Steve is speaking of. The engine mounts backwards with flywheel to the front of the boat. When accelerating hard from a stop the front of the boat will rise high out of the water. This action, plus the acceleration, will cause the oil in the pan to move quickly towards the rear of the boat which is where the "front" of the oil pan is, starving the normal pickup. Putting a front sump pan and pickup on the engine will solve this problem.

[boodlefoof]

Thanks again for the thoughts everyone. I'll detach the trans tonight and try to drop the engine straight down (so as to not have to deal with angling it in and bumping the heads on the firewall) and see just how much of a headache I've got here. Perhaps I can get my clearance by a combination of notching the back of the crossmember and the front of the rear-sump pan (I'll have to see how much clearance I have inside there to the pickup)instead of having to hack too much into the firewall.

[boodlefoof]

Hey guys,

Just wanted to give you an update. I notched the crossmember and was able to get the engine to drop a bit more without putting the cylinder heads into the firewall (well, not all the way through it anyway!). I did have to cut away the bottom of the wiper motor "bump" in the firewall though.

With the engine and trans back together and the engine dropped down, I tried to set the tailshaft angle to approximately parallel to the ground. Unfortunately, as I lifted the trans tail to try and get it in place, now... wouldn't you know it... the steering rack is interfering with the front of the oil pan... With that interference, to get the tailshaft angle about where I want it requires the tailshaft to be so high that it pops up through the floor pan. Just can't win with this thing!

I called Heidt's to see if they had a solution. FYI - they told me that they advise against using their universal Mustang II kit with Pontiacs precisely due to oil pan clearance issues, and have now designed a different front suspension package for Pontiacs.

So, I've been plugging numbers into Suspension Analyzer and it looks like I'll be able to work a rack-drop solution in tandem with some bump steer studs at the outer tie rod end. Since I'm going to have to move the rack, I've also devised a better geometry for bump steer. Now, just have to double check on the car to see if the drop I have in mind will be enough.

It is always something...