[mechanickeith]

The new unpainted pump you have is a 4 cylinder pump. All V8 4 bolt pumps look the same as far as the depth of the impeller vanes. Some have different shaped impellers but its the depth that matters. If you run that new pump, you will blow out the left head gasket due to no circulation of coolant. We are still having issues with this 50 years later!!! I feel your pain my friend. Hate to say it but I have it better. I can run either pump!

[ho421]

Originally Posted by mechanickeith

The new unpainted pump you have is a 4 cylinder pump. All V8 4 bolt pumps look the same as far as the depth of the impeller vanes. Some have different shaped impellers but its the depth that matters. If you run that new pump, you will blow out the left head gasket due to no circulation of coolant. We are still having issues with this 50 years later!!! I feel your pain my friend. Hate to say it but I have it better. I can run either pump!

Agreed. It certainly is for a 4cy. But that is the confusing part. Same part number as the one taken off the 421. Different impeller and even the shaft looks a different length. Maybe a case where a v8 core was rebuilt as a 4cy. I'm kicking myself for not looking it over closer when it arrived. In the meantime, is the 389 pump offered by the ebayer the same as that used on the 421? I question putting the old pump back on. Wouldn't the seal be dried up after dry storage for so many years?

[mviker]

Originally Posted by ho421

Agreed. It certainly is for a 4cy. But that is the confusing part. Same part number as the one taken off the 421. Different impeller and even the shaft looks a different length. Maybe a case where a v8 core was rebuilt as a 4cy. I'm kicking myself for not looking it over closer when it arrived. In the meantime, is the 389 pump offered by the ebayer the same as that used on the 421? I question putting the old pump back on. Wouldn't the seal be dried up after dry storage for so many years?

ho421,

At this stage, I'd be hesitant to say there were different pumps between the 389's and 421's. There are V8 pumps that have different impellers and or housings, but from what I've seen, when compared, the impellers are still in the same location once installed even though they appear to have obvious differences. Again, That may be due to rebuilders or aftermarket manufacturers. I'm sure others here know more on this than I do, but that's my take on the subject.

Kevin

[mechanickeith]

The pumps have the same cast number on them. The only difference is the impeller. Any V8 4 bolt pump will work on any 370,389,421, etc, etc. Post up that 4 cyl pump in the 61-63 Tempest forum. Someone will take it off your hands!

[mviker]

I had a chance to hit our local junkyard this past Friday. There are a few 62's there, so I thought I'd check the waterpumps if they had any. Two cars had newer motors with the 8 or 11 bolt pumps, one was empty, and one had a 4 bolt. I can't say I know how long the car has been there or if it's original, but I would think so. The car appears to have been there a lonnnnnng time. Anyway, here are a few pics of the pump I pulled out of the car.

[mechanickeith]

Stock standard V8 4 bolt pump.

[mviker]

It looks like I'm back in the water pump game. I visited a buddy of mine last weekend and the car overheated big time on the way home. Fortunately, it wasn't too far and I made it home.

I figured the overheating was the thermostat, so I replaced it today and fired the car up again. It warmed up and immediately overheated again. Well, I pulled my relatively new waterpump that came from Ebay and whuddya know..The impeller fell off and was sitting inside the timing chain cover. This is the water pump with the cast impeller and it popped right off. Rrrrrr....

I still had the old one, so I cleaned it up and put it back in since it wasn't giving me trouble before. Got it in and fired the car up and wouldn't you know it...It was leaking through the weep hole!

There's one pump left. It's the one with the plastic impeller. I need a gasket before it can go in. Gonna hit the parts store tomorrow and give this another shot.

I've had water pumps go bad before, but not one where the impeller fell off. This is a first. Big Aqua...That's the same pump you bought off Ebay too. Hopefully, you will have better luck. Keep an eye on it!

Kevin

[mechanickeith]

Have never seen a cast impeller come of of the shaft!! Interesting!! On a side note. I always drill a 1/8" hole in the thermostat base so the air can purge out of the system. This allows you to completely fill the system & not have to wait for the thermostat to open to top off the radiator.

[mechanickeith]

Kevin,,,Any more news?? Would like to see pictures of the pump shaft & the impeller that came apart.

[mviker]

Hey Keith,

No updates just yet. I have yet another waterpump I bought from Cardone. It looks fabulous. I'm hoping to get it in the car today if possible. I have the bad pump still. Will try and get some pics up in the near future.

[mviker]

Ok, I installed the Cardone waterpump this morning. I noticed when I removed the last pump that the gasket may not have sealed completely. It was way to easy to remove, plus it didn't appear to have 'stuck' all the way around. Funny, because I used a liberal amount of gasket sealer. Oh well... I got everything all cleaned up and put the new one in. gonna let it set and cure for the day before I put the coolant back in.

Keith...Here are a couple pics of the failed pump. Nothing remarkable aside from the fact that the impeller just came off. Like you, I have never seen this happen before. I dunno if the pump has been rebuilt so many times that maybe the impeller won't stay on (out of tolerance?), or if maybe, the guy that rebuilt it did a bad job. Hard to say. It looked to be fine when it went in. The new pump from Cardone looked to be really nice. It felt good and solid also, so Hopefully, the third time's the charm!

Hee are the pics...

[mechanickeith]

Saved the pictures. Interesting!! Have never seen that before either!

[Pontiac62]

Kevin,
Any pictures of your Cardone pump?
Thanks,
Les

[Engine-Ear]

I hope you epoxied the shaft/impeller interface on the new one, Kev!

Yea, interesting pics for sure!

[mviker]

Ha! No, no epoxy, but I did give it the once over a couple times, Matt!

Les...Unfortunately, no. I didn't take any shots of the Cardone pump. I will say it was a nice piece. It also had the factory style impeller. I had that thing out of the box, cleaned and painted and in the car pretty fast. I'm getting pretty good at changing these things quickly.

The pump was the Cardone 58-594, cast impeller.

Kevin

[pfilean]

mviker - Any update on how the Cardone 58-594 cools? Maybe not the best time of year to test it.

Trying to decide if I should spend some bucks on one. Have my engine out to clean it up check out a number of things I'm curious about. Amoung those is the water pump. Have a cooling system that is kind of marginal even with the Desert Cooler radiator. Seems fine most of the time but with an extended period of highway driving the temp will creep up. Or on a hot day at stop lights it comes up. Not really a lot but enough to get my attention. My pump looks like the 58-298 stamped impeller. The pictures I can get online for the 58-594 look like the pictures you posted a while back from a junk yard pump that mechanickeith called a factory stock.

Funny how if you cross check several suppliers they all seem to have the same part numbers. 58-594 is the cast impeller and 58-298 is the stamped impeller. And prices range all up and down the line. The 58-594 seems to have a high at NAPA at about $124 online. But if you do some online searching sometimes you get the same number for about $65. The 58-298 is about half that. And as they all have the same numbers I suspect they are all rebuilt by Cardone. I hope Cardone is better than they used to be. Years ago I had a lot of problems with their stuff and usually tried to get what I thought might be a different remanufacturer. But maybe it is all theirs anyway.

[mviker]

Hey pfilean,

I don't really have too much more to add on the waterpump front. Yep, I put the 58-594 in and finally took her out for a spin last weekend. Everything looks good so far, but yes, it's fall/winter and outside temps are in a sweet 40-60 degree range around here these days. I have a 160 degree thermostat and the car is averaging right around 160 - 180 degrees. That's where I'd love to see my gauge on a hot, 90 degree day, but will have to hold off until next year, that is unless it really IS the end of the world come Dec 21st! lol

I will say I was impressed with the quality of the Cardone pump. Looked and felt good holding it. It's got the same impeller as that junkyard one I took a pic of, so I'd say it's a real life actual Pontiac pump and not some Frankensteined together pump like some of the others in the thread. Can't really say if it's better than those ones with the propeller looking vanes either. we'll just have to see what this coming car season's going to bring us.

I'm hoping this will do the trick as I've gone through my cooling system so many times now, and tried just about every trick out there. I've got the shroud, sealed off all the gaps between the radiator and core support. I've had an aluminum radiator, but now have my original in there, but it's been re-cored, so it's like new. The motor was fresh back in 2008 and I've done what I can to take care and keep it clean inside and out. I've tried that water wetter stuff, but recently found it doesn't really do much if you're using coolant. It's supposed to go into cars running only water. Loses it's effectiveness when mixed with antifreeze.

My system is clean, fresh coolant, new thermostat, and this new pump. Life is good now. I'm fine going down the road. My trouble hs been similar to you...Pull up to a light or get stuck in traffic and watch that temp climb. Funny thing is, I swapped intakes last summer. My last intake was an Offenhouser and I had heat issues with it too, but had 'em solved until I made the swap to a factory Pontiac 2X4 intake. Things were fine at ffirst, but as summer rolled on, the gauge started rising too.

I'm gonna keep hammering this. Almost considering an electric fan, but I think the darn car should work as it was built with no aftermarket stuff. My tune is good also. If this was an advance issue, the consensus is the car would be overheating going down the road. That doesn't seem to be the case, but I'd like to learn and play more with it if for nothing else, more experience. It MIGHT help. Couldn't hurt.

well that's the story so far until next summer and I'm sticking to it!

I'd say, the 58-594 is THE pump that should be in our old cars. I sure hope Cardone has gotten better these days than your past experience. Time will tell!

Kevin

[Deadhead]

4 core radiator is the way to go if you can not get any satisfaction this round.

That keeps my '66 at 160 no matter what. In this weather I even run 140. Makes a big difference.

[Engine-Ear]

And to pfilean's "still running hot", I am leaning toward water passage blockage in one or both heads...just a thought.

At this point I am going to look for a local (-ish) rebuilder to redo what I bring him. ...Or maybe I will get my shop ship shape, get a press and create the tools needed to "roll my own", so to speak.

Thanks for the update, Kevin!

[mviker]

Hey Bruce!

Yeah, I will probably look into the 4 core also. I DO have a Griffin aluminum radiator, but they goofed when I ordered it. Apparently, it's for a 63. I tried using it, but ran into trouble because the inlet and outlet flanges the hoses connect to, were different sizes. Is that typical on a 63 engine? I think the bottom was like 2 1/2" and the top was 2 1/4. Drove me nuts for a while until I finally just re-cored the original radiator. I probably should have returned it, but decided to try to make it work. Don't recall how many rows it had. I'll check that maybe tonight.

I'm with you Matt. Wish I had a shop also. I'd love to have a press along with some other cool rools to really get into things. Ahhh.... maybe one day!