[RamAir]

Anybody have any experience with this refrigerant product?

http://www.envirosafe-refrigerants.com/

It's supposed to be a alternative to R12.

[Mikes455Wagon]

Just brought my suburban back up on Envirosafe Industrial 12a. I can't compare to 12 exactly because I upgraded to a more modern parallel flow condenser in the process and my truck had previously been converted to r134. Cooling at idle is OK. Cooling while going down the road was about 38 degrees at 83 degrees ambient. The pressure does seem to run a little lower with the envirosafe than with 134. I don't think it has the chill to it r12 does, but for the price, can't beat it is my opinion.

[buddy in texas]

I recently installed the ES-12 in my 65 GTO with great success. It's simple to install, no vacuum required. My system is overcharged and I haven't yet released some of the refrigerant, but even so, it cools quite well to 48 degrees with outside temps in the mid 90's. It likely will chill to high 30's or low 40's when the correct amount of refrigerant is in the system.
I have gotten mostly negative feedback from site members who haven't used it to my understanding, but claim it's dangerous, explosive, etc. I can't foresee those problems with the small amount (20 oz) in my system. Hey, to each his own. I've been messing with cars for 50+ years and don't anticipate any problems.

[LASJayhawk]

Of course I haven't used it. It is a violation of federal law to put it in an automobile or truck. I would also note that is against the law in some states to use ANY flammable refrigerants in automobiles including the states of Virginia and Texas.

It is also a violation of the clean air act to vent ANY refrigerant into the atmosphere, even if it's nothing more than the gas in a Bic lighter.

There are over a dozen safe, legal, and approved replacements for R-12 in a car, what is the upside to it?

http://www.epa.gov/Ozone/snap/refrigerants/hc-12a.html

If one of these cars gets sold and the next guy doesn't understand the difference, and takes the car somewhere to get the A/C serviced, the least that will happen is you will contaminate the gas in their recovery machine (I've lost over $1,000 in 12 & 134 that way)

Or worse the wrong type of leak detector will set the car on fire, or the recovery machine will explode. But what the heck, you saved $10. Not to mention if you have an engine fire the car won't just burn, it stands a good chance of exploding from the compressed propane that shouldn't have been there in the first place. I'm sure the cop or firefighter that gets killed or maimed will understand, I mean $10 whole dollars!

Damn right I'm pi$$ed. IT IS ILLEGAL TO USE IN A CAR FOR GOOD REASON.

[RamAir]

Thanks, I'm glad I asked...

[bsblguy]

Put 134 in my gto and it will freeze you out on a hot day. No need to use anything else.

[LASJayhawk]

ramair, Sorry I wasn't venting at you. Just after bringing up some of this in a week old thread http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...d.php?t=734221 I'm getting a little tweeked.

bsblguy, if/when forced to switch from 12, imho the best 2 choices are 134a and Freeze 12 (134a and 142b blend) Freeze 12 works dang good, but may be hard to find a shop to service. 134a works OK but has a lot higher head pressure, but no problem finding a shop to work on it.

buddy in texas (whom I was venting at) If you have air in the system NOTHING will work right. Air won't condense, and the system efficiency will go to ****. Plus you would now have a compressed mixture of propane, butane and air. This is not a good mixture unless you want to start a fire. But it could be worse......

If you mix propane, butane and R-12 you stand of starting a fire hot enough to burn the R-12. Burn R-12 and you get Phosgene gas. My understanding is this is, or is a close relative to the mustard gas used in WW1.

These HC based replacements are allowed in some industrial applications because they are known and the public won't be exposed to them.

[Mikes455Wagon]

I believe if you read up, you will find the ES12 is not a "replacement" for R12, but is for 134a which is a "grey area" so to speak in the laws. Since I am the only one that will be working on my system, I will take my chances. If R12 was still on the shelves and priced reasonably, then yeah, I would have put it back in as it works very well. R134 is some deadly stuff, face it, R12 was a way safer refrigerant, but I won't go into how I feel about the change from 12 to 134. The ignition points of ES12a are higher at 0 and 5.5psi than 134, but I believe once you induce an oil mist, they will both go up in flames. Have you read up on HFO-1234yf? If not, your gonna love that stuff. Hell, I will take my chances with ES12a, once again, the government and auto manufacturers are worried about my safety

[LASJayhawk]

Mikes455, Virgina is one of the 18 states that has a law against using ANY hydrocarbon refrigerant in an automobile. Period.

1234? don't get me started. The delay in implementing it is as much about making sure the service machines won't blow up as anything else.

[LASJayhawk]

LASJayhawk < now past boiling mad.
MODERATORS: using this in an automobile is against federal law and against the law in multiple states. PY's terms of service include this statment:

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You have members condoning the violation of federal law, and the states they live in, but you don't give a rats rear.

bsblguy pointed out there is a simple legal way to do this, but no that's not good enough. This is almost like saying I can shoot my gun in the air, the odds of it hitting someone is almost zero so it's OK.

A recovery/recycling machine when confronted with a mismatch between the temperature and the pressure starts venting assuming it's air that's the problem, not propane................