[Alvin]

Originally Posted by Ccass

Alvin, Chill I'm a big boy. I can handle it. Also if Goat didn't speak his mind and everyone else blew smoke up my ass, to quote Ghostbusters. 'it would be bad, very bad'.

No smoke and No worries on this end. Really.

My previous reply was a personal Pet-Peeve of mine to an all too common attitude that I see over-and-over again:

"Trash a free Website/Service/Source because the creators, owners, originators and providers ($ payers) have the "audacity" to improve or change it to the way the owners want or need it."

On these very PY forums there have been more than one trashing of other "Pontiac" websites provided @ no cost to users...resorting to name calling and posted "written demands" here that "they" should have been consulted 1st, website returned to the way it was etc. Unbelievable! But unfortunately it is fairly common.

So, BTT & OP: I greatly appreciate your not expecting smoke, and thank you for this FREE web forum that specializes in Pontiac's of most if not all years. It is more often than not, that I personally learn or re-learn Pontiac and other unrelated information and sources.

Personally - if I don't have an interest in a website, section, niche of a niche, editorial bent, item, etc. I simply move on or look elsewhere. IMO - One of the points lost in this is the amount of time and effort it takes to rework, improve, update, "revert back to as it was", etc.

The Takeaway: I'd invite anyone reading this to think about what it's like when this very PY forum "takes a vacation" and is off-line for any period of time. "Respect and be thankful for what is provided for free" is my opinion.

[Pontiac Fool]

Maybe a solution would be to have a main page come up that has a logo that says 80' & newer Pontiac's & one for the older real Pontiac's. So when you click the older it takes you to the good old way it was before. The newer one take you to all the new crap that was added. Then no one sorts through boring BS for either side. It would be a lot less likely that our usual topic threads to have the "driving dead" corporate guys spewing their chevy intelligence that has nothing to do with our topic.
After all when you get to the PY home page it has a forum tab. Then most likely after they get to their forum they save as favorites & they always click that & always go straight to it. Then PY wont end up OR take way longer to get all messed up with new car bias thinking.

Ccass,
You say that making these new, newer corporate car guys that know little to nothing about a real Pontiac motor feel at home here is the key to the next 20yrs. Well that's living a pipe dream because in reality they are the reason WE Pontiac guys fight to keep our Pontiac's true. Its not the true Pontiac guy that seeks to put an LS or SBC in our cars. So its actually the opposite. Allowing them to voice their chevy motor only opinions in a newbes thread will just continue to dilute or cars that still have real Pontiac motors in them.
As far as making them feel welcome well sure I enjoy talking to all car guys at car shows. Even if its only 2-5 Pontiac guys vrs 100 others but its obvious that for every 200-300 Pontiac's with a chevy transplant vrs there's 1 or 2 chevys with a Pontiac transplanted in it IF that. So THEY are the ones that could care less about making us feel welcome for the last 20yrs.
That's why I suggested the separate tabs for the forums on a main page to minimize the chevy diluting effect on newbe's. If you dont think thats true look at HAMB, Speedtalk, Protouring & others where the chevy guys they all come out from under all the rocks & convince him to go with the SBC or LS. Luckily you see the guys from your great site come on to set the facts straight & even then its maybe a 50/50 chance we saved him from the chevy virus that in the "driving dead"

[Ccass]

Originally Posted by ho428

A forum, like any TV or computer program, has to be enjoyable to use or people will stop using it. What may seem minor to some is annoying as heck to others, and they will stop watching or using it.

I have no issue with the modern sections being here, but like non stop commercials on certain shows, I'll eventually quit watching because of the unwelcome distractions if they're in the way of enjoying the show.

It's the old, 'if you don't like what you see, you'll turn the channel'. I get that. However, one very important factor that you may have missed is that many members are not participating for their own enjoyment or entertainment. They're participating because helping others brings them a sense of accomplishment and gratification. They participate because it's the right thing to do for our hobby. And all these members that thought and continue to think that way are the reason our hobby has flourished over the last 20 years. The internet gave us an easy way to share our time and knowledge and we're all benefiting from it. I suspect that most of those that look at the changes as an annoyance or an inconvenience are feeling that way because it doesn't directly benefit them. And really that brings us to the real point. I would argue that if we all take a good look at ourselves, as we complain about a layout change, and realize that layout is not the issue here. Rather this is a classic defense mechanism of 'new kid on the block'. 'There goes the neighborhood' mentality. We've all been very comfortable and now here comes change.

The irony is that many times, that new kid turns out to be one of your good friends.

[ho428]

Although I've been on here more than I thought I would today it's been mainly to read this thread.
My main PY sections have always been:
Lobby
Street
Race
67-69 Firebird Tech
Performance Parts for sale.
A few others are hit and miss.

Today I've rarely looked at the others due to the forum layout being a serious distraction. It's lost something intimate and sometimes that little something lost turns into a big issue. It actually looks more cluttered and commercial than the ones you wrote about being taken over.

I hope you're right and things go well, but it's a lot more than old vs new. It's just way-way too busy looking and annoying.
Again, only giving viewer feedback, we all appreciate this site but would hate to see it's membership scattered.

[Rodney R]

Originally Posted by Ccass

It's the old, 'if you don't like what you see, you'll turn the channel'. I get that. However, one very important factor that you may have missed is that many members are not participating for their own enjoyment or entertainment. They're participating because helping others brings them a sense of accomplishment and gratification. They participate because it's the right thing to do for our hobby. And all these members that thought and continue to think that way are the reason our hobby has flourished over the last 20 years. The internet gave us an easy way to share our time and knowledge and we're all benefiting from it. I suspect that most of those that look at the changes as an annoyance or an inconvenience are feeling that way because it doesn't directly benefit them. And really that brings us to the real point. I would argue that if we all take a good look at ourselves, as we complain about a layout change, and realize that layout is not the issue here. Rather this is a classic defense mechanism of 'new kid on the block'. 'There goes the neighborhood' mentality. We've all been very comfortable and now here comes change.

The irony is that many times, that new kid turns out to be one of your good friends.

Chris,

I think that what you're doing is awesome. I know there are and will continue to be some growing pains in the whole process but any effort to try to bring the Pontiac community together is really great and much appreciated.

Something I've noticed as someone who's 22 and owns an old GTO is that there's generally a 'good ole boy' mentality in the whole muscle car family. I'm involved here and have taken my car to multiple car shows(both Pontiac and general shows), but can't help but feel like a total outsider. I know that I've got a lot to learn and am incredibly inexperienced in the hobby, but I absolutely love my Pontiac. I feel like my inexperience in the hobby is a bit crippling and disheartening honestly. I sit with my car for hours and walk around to talk to other enthusiasts but the majority of the poeple at shows make it obvious that I'm the odd man out because I haven't been around the block as many times. Rather than be excited about someone who can carry the torch of love for the cars onto the next generation, most guys overlook poeple like me.

Something like adding a new generation of both people and cars to a hobby can be uncomfortable- change is rarely easy. But if newcomers aren't welcomed into the hobby, it will surely die. Think about it- what's the average age of a musclecar owner? Probably much higher than 22. Unless something is done to welcome new poeple into the hobby, what will happen to the value of your car- or even the car itself? In 50 years, will an old Pontiac be seen as desireabe? That is completely up to the people that own them now- if people are so resistant to change that they won't foster a new generation of owners into the hobby, how much will that $200,000 judge be worth in 50 years?

You never know, investing a bit of time into the younger generation and sharing a love for Pontiac as a whole might make my generation develop a love for the older cars like everyone here has now. Just food for thought

[Ccass]

Originally Posted by Pontiac Fool

Maybe a solution would be to have a main page come up that has a logo that says 80' & newer Pontiac's & one for the older real Pontiac's. So when you click the older it takes you to the good old way it was before. The newer one take you to all the new crap that was added.

This has been discussed and may still be implemented in some way but keep in mind that what we're trying to do here is change a culture. We WANT everyone to hang out together. That being said, currently we agree that the new layout really shouts Late Model and hence why we have pre-planned to adjust it in the not too distant future.

[Ccass]

Originally Posted by ho428

Although I've been on here more than I thought I would today it's been mainly to read this thread.
My main PY sections have always been:
Lobby
Street
Race
67-69 Firebird Tech
Performance Parts for sale.
A few others are hit and miss.

Today I've rarely looked at the others due to the forum layout being a serious distraction. It's lost something intimate and sometimes that little something lost turns into a big issue. It actually looks more cluttered and commercial than the ones you wrote about being taken over.

I hope you're right and things go well, but it's a lot more than old vs new. It's just way-way too busy looking and annoying.
Again, only giving viewer feedback, we all appreciate this site but would hate to see it's membership scattered.

Good stuff. I hear you. Give us a little time to shake it out and clean it up a bit. We're actively working on it.

[Ccass]

Originally Posted by Rodney R

Chris,

I think that what you're doing is awesome. I know there are and will continue to be some growing pains in the whole process but any effort to try to bring the Pontiac community together is really great and much appreciated.

Something I've noticed as someone who's 22 and owns an old GTO is that there's generally a 'good ole boy' mentality in the whole muscle car family. I'm involved here and have taken my car to multiple car shows(both Pontiac and general shows), but can't help but feel like a total outsider. I know that I've got a lot to learn and am incredibly inexperienced in the hobby, but I absolutely love my Pontiac. I feel like my inexperience in the hobby is a bit crippling and disheartening honestly. I sit with my car for hours and walk around to talk to other enthusiasts but the majority of the poeple at shows make it obvious that I'm the odd man out because I haven't been around the block as many times. Rather than be excited about someone who can carry the torch of love for the cars onto the next generation, most guys overlook poeple like me.

Something like adding a new generation of both people and cars to a hobby can be uncomfortable- change is rarely easy. But if newcomers aren't welcomed into the hobby, it will surely die. Think about it- what's the average age of a musclecar owner? Probably much higher than 22. Unless something is done to welcome new poeple into the hobby, what will happen to the value of your car- or even the car itself? In 50 years, will an old Pontiac be seen as desireabe? That is completely up to the people that own them now- if people are so resistant to change that they won't foster a new generation of owners into the hobby, how much will that $200,000 judge be worth in 50 years?

You never know, investing a bit of time into the younger generation and sharing a love for Pontiac as a whole might make my generation develop a love for the older cars like everyone here has now. Just food for thought

Can we push a button and print 10,000 copies of you?

[Ccass]

Originally Posted by Pontiac Fool

Ccass,
You say that making these new, newer corporate car guys that know little to nothing about a real Pontiac motor feel at home here is the key to the next 20yrs. Well that's living a pipe dream because in reality they are the reason WE Pontiac guys fight to keep our Pontiac's true. Its not the true Pontiac guy that seeks to put an LS or SBC in our cars. So its actually the opposite. Allowing them to voice their chevy motor only opinions in a newbes thread will just continue to dilute or cars that still have real Pontiac motors in them.
As far as making them feel welcome well sure I enjoy talking to all car guys at car shows. Even if its only 2-5 Pontiac guys vrs 100 others but its obvious that for every 200-300 Pontiac's with a chevy transplant vrs there's 1 or 2 chevys with a Pontiac transplanted in it IF that. So THEY are the ones that could care less about making us feel welcome for the last 20yrs.
That's why I suggested the separate tabs for the forums on a main page to minimize the chevy diluting effect on newbe's. If you dont think thats true look at HAMB, Speedtalk, Protouring & others where the chevy guys they all come out from under all the rocks & convince him to go with the SBC or LS. Luckily you see the guys from your great site come on to set the facts straight & even then its maybe a 50/50 chance we saved him from the chevy virus that in the "driving dead"

Hence the separate forum areas for new versus old. No reason to have either group try and convince the other of why they like their powerplant better. It's comparing apples to oranges. However, there is still knowledge to be gained by seeing different perspectives. There is still the social aspect of gathering in the name of PMD. If you think PMD died in 1979 when the traditional Pontiac block died, then our fate is sealed. New technology in old cars is at a fever pace. Does that mean we all have to follow along? Absolutely not. But it doesn't mean we can't help get a fellow Pontiac owner closer to his dream ride.

[66bonne]

Personally I have only a little interest in the newer Pontiacs but I am glad to see that they have a home here with their own forums. Those owners are just as passionate about the NewGens, G8s etc as I am about mid 60s big cars.
I would be very disappointed if I visited this site only to discover that that my passion was virtually ignored.
I think the additions will make the site more attractive, and certainly informative, for the next generation [and our own for that matter].

Jim

[Sidponcho]

oh my goodness, people. You have a very powerful web browser at your fingertips.....use it......create favorites.

Lobby
http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...play.php?f=467

69-69 GTO Tech
http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...play.php?f=433

Mr Pushrods B.O.T.D.
http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...07249&page=236

[GOAT WHORE]

Originally Posted by Ccass

If you think PMD died in 1979 when the traditional Pontiac block died, then our fate is sealed.

By this logic our fate is sealed even with your wanting to include the newer models as there is no more Pontiac. Just would hate to see this site go the way of The Legand and HHP, watered down to ME.

[Ccass]

[QUOTE=GOAT WHORE;5038154]By this logic our fate is sealed even with your wanting to include the newer models as there is no more Pontiac. Just would hate to see this site go the way of The Legand and HHP, watered down to ME.[/QUOTE
That's a good point but those other entities are watered down by your standards. To someone with a passion for both new and old, the magazine has improved and quite frankly, its the reason Hpp still exists. The so size of the mag is still the same or smaller mostly because of printing cost constraints. People choose to get there pontiac fix on platforms like this. We have no such costs. We can just keep adding content without regard for costs.

Lets learn from past experiences. The new needs the old and the old needs the new. Don't make me say I told you so in 10 years. :-)

[Icefan71]

If there is strength in numbers, then lets welcome the late model guys. Its really not much of an inconvenience to have to scroll down a little further. I'm only a couple of years into this hobby and I wanna keep doing it til I'm back in diapers .

[GOAT WHORE]

[QUOTE=Ccass;5038170]

Originally Posted by GOAT WHORE

By this logic our fate is sealed even with your wanting to include the newer models as there is no more Pontiac. Just would hate to see this site go the way of The Legand and HHP, watered down to ME.[/QUOTE
That's a good point but those other entities are watered down by your standards. To someone with a passion for both new and old, the magazine has improved and quite frankly, its the reason Hpp still exists. The so size of the mag is still the same or smaller mostly because of printing cost constraints. People choose to get there pontiac fix on platforms like this. We have no such costs. We can just keep adding content without regard for costs.

Lets learn from past experiences. The new needs the old and the old needs the new. Don't make me say I told you so in 10 years. :-)

So are you suggesting that in 10 years, with out the joining of the corporate and REAL Pontiacs we won't be able to get parts for our old cars? If its not that then how will we still not be able to enjoy our Pontiacs in 10 years?

[Half-Inch Stud]

I loath changes.


I really loath changes to my tools (SW, PC, IPAD, TOOLs, TP mounting)

[Rodney R]

Originally Posted by GOAT WHORE

So are you suggesting that in 10 years, with out the joining of the corporate and REAL Pontiacs we won't be able to get parts for our old cars? If its not that then how will we still not be able to enjoy our Pontiacs in 10 years?

I think you're missing his point- it's not the parts as much as it is the hobby. If everyone is so avid about ostracizing a new generation of people and/or cars from the hobby, there will be no muscle car following when you all are gone. Think long term here- when most of the people here are not in the condition to maintain or drive the cars later on in life, who will want them? Unless you learn to embrace outsiders, or at least give them a shot and try to win them over into Pontiac purism, the hobby will surely die. The cars sitting in our garages now will all be worth nothing and crushed, or worse- they could all still be running around with a bunch of sbc's in them.

Before you try to burn Chris at the stake, maybe you should give the new guys a shot. Heck, you may win some of them over to 'real' Pontiacs!

[saltman 1965]

OK my first love is Pontiacs! My second is Mustangs.The first car I restored was my dads 68 coupe back in the early 80s. Helped him form the local club here. At first the old guys did not like the Mustang II or Fox bodies in the club but when they saw the dues they pay and how active they were all was forgotten.Now I am the old guy & even older guys that are still around Drive late models and leave old one at home until a show.In short this hobby and I mean the car hobby in general needs new blood. At least with Pontiacs there is one main forum to go to. Try that with a Ford.

[PonchoV8]

We fear change.

[GOAT WHORE]

Originally Posted by Rodney R

I think you're missing his point- it's not the parts as much as it is the hobby. If everyone is so avid about ostracizing a new generation of people and/or cars from the hobby, there will be no muscle car following when you all are gone. Think long term here- when most of the people here are not in the condition to maintain or drive the cars later on in life, who will want them? Unless you learn to embrace outsiders, or at least give them a shot and try to win them over into Pontiac purism, the hobby will surely die. The cars sitting in our garages now will all be worth nothing and crushed, or worse- they could all still be running around with a bunch of sbc's in them.

Before you try to burn Chris at the stake, maybe you should give the new guys a shot. Heck, you may win some of them over to 'real' Pontiacs!

I guess I was missing the point if in fact that is what Chris is trying to convey, but I don't care! I really could care less if there is someone wanting my cars when I am gone. I am not trying too get people to like these cars or any others. I do this as a hobby because its what I like, bottom line. Could care less if everyone else thought my cars were lame pieces of crap! No shows to go to.... oh well. I do love swap meets and car shows but most of all I love working on and driving my cars.
As for burning Chris at the stake that's not the case. I LOVE THIS FORUM!!!! I am only voicing my opinion. Any Pontiac guy I ever run into I ask them if they are on PY forum and if not I highly encourage them to check it out.