[27jalopy]

I've always wondered about them. My Le Mans was originally a 326 HO, now it only uses the carb, intake, pulleys, air cleaner etc., from the original motor. I wish dad would have kept the long block.

The convert was purchased by my dad back in 1997 from the original owner, and I bought it from dad in '98 (I think). It was my first car! It came originally with power driver seat, spinner/wire wheel hubcaps, the HO package, rally clock, automatic & console, and power steering. After dad died 6 years ago I bought it back from mom.

I'm just wondering how rare the HO's were and how they are viewed today. I would imagine this Le Mans was more expensive than my '65 GTO convertible was when new, since my GTO came with basically no options other than GTO, 4 speed, & console. I should do PHS on the Le Mans... I have never done it since it was so original when dad got it, just one repaint.

Also, a local ad last year had a '64 Le Mans hardtop 326 HO that was totally original for $3,000. Original paint, everything. Fremont car and the crumbly build sheet was sitting on the front seat! Motor not seized but not currently running, all parts intact and not rusty. A few dents. And I passed on it!! I kept telling my brother "I should wait...I really should just get it for a parts car for the '64 GTO project..." and the wishy washiness went on and on. Now I'm wondering what I was thinking!!

I guess because it was my first car, but I have an interest in the 326 HO '64 and '65s. And deep down I've always been angry at myself for falling for the idea that a Le Mans is just not super cool like the GTO. Crap, they ARE super cool! They are the same thing. And Le Mans seem a lot less common these days.

[geeteeohguy]

They are seldom seen, and desirable. Back in the mid 7o's in the SF Bay Area there was an older lady (probably original owner) of a Montero Red/Parchment interior '65 LeMans convertible with a 326 HO and a 4 speed. Car had rally gauges and console, too. If I remember correctly, power rear antenna as well. It was a mint condition car, and she even wore a jacket that said " '65 326 HO 4 SPD" on the back. Much rarer than like GTO's, IMO, and the way this car was optioned, probably just as expensive to buy back in the day. I lusted after that car way before I got my first car, which was a '66 GTO.

[Tom Vaught]

Some of the fastest A-Body cars I saw when I was young were NOT GTOs. (They were Le-Mans or Tempests). I asked a guy why he did not race a GTO. He said why pay all of that extra money when I just want to go fast and the Le-Mans or Tempest is lighter.

Tom Vaught

[saltman 1965]

Would like to know more about this option too. My 65 has a 326 2bbl. Bought a 4 bbl manifold & carb for a 65 GTO on eBay & air cleaner from Jerry H. To turn my car into an HO. I have a tech sheet that shows the 2bbl engine code is WP or YN with a 9.2 -1 comp. ratio & the HO.is WR or YP with a 10.5-1 comp.ratio. Maybe different heads? But I would like to know more about this option. Thanks Saltman.

[GTO JOHN]

I have a '65 326 HO long block for sale which would be perfect for any of you HO guys looking for a correct block and heads;

Engine block 9778840
Cast Date F285
Eng Code YP
EUN 639344

Heads # 22
Cast Date F265

$400 plus shipping.

[Andre]

My brother's first car in 1983-84 was a 66 LeMans HO. It was floor shift auto. It was basically a 326 with 093 heads, 4bbl Carter and dual exhausts. I remember it was fast, but not at the same level if my 66 3x2 four speed car.
It was rusty and I ended up parting it out, but the stupidity of youth was the rule of the day. I only took what I needed instead of everything that was usable. I still have the nose header.
I had the drivers door up to a few years ago and discovered that the reveal had the little clip for the front attaching point as opposed to the screw hidden behind the vent window.

[John V.]

I don't have production nos. to reference, but I am convinced the 326 HO option was a lot rarer than the GTO option.

Reason being, the average buyer simply wanted a V8 and the majority were content with the 2 bbl 326 over the base 6 cyl. Production of the 2 bbl 326 far exceeded the production of the 6 cyl models.

For those that wanted more power, few were content to stop at the 4 bbl 326, they jumped right up to the 389 GTO.

I do not know how much more the GTO option cost vs. the 326 HO option, but it was not very much.

In stock trim, the GTO was a bit faster. It got marginally stiffer springs, even if you ordered the HD Springs and Shocks for the 326 HO. The GTO also got the bigger 15/16" dia. front stabilizer bar.

In '64, the only way you could get the bigger bar with the 326 HO was with the Quick Ratio Manual Steering Rally Handling option. If you took Power Steering, you settled for the smaller 7/8" bar. Only the GTO could have PS and the bigger bar.

In '65, PMD corrected that, put the bigger bar in with the HD Springs & Shocks option so that you could have the bigger bar with Power Steering (or Manual Steering) in a non-GTO.

Dual exhaust was standard with the 326 HO.

Modest differences between the Super Turbine behind the 389 vs. the 326 HO. Pretty much had the same axle ratio options.

The GTO got the special 6" wide wheels, I do not believe you could get those from the factory on a non-GTO, but in '65 you could get the Rally Wheels. You couldn't get the Red Lines except on a GTO but many GTOs got the Whitewalls, same as you could order on a non-GTO.

Same frame, same brakes.

I think the smaller radiator unless you ordered HD Rad or A/C.

The weight difference was pretty small, mainly whatever the short block difference was since all other components were basically the same.

In the 1/4, I've heard that the 326 HO was maybe little more than 3/4 sec. slower than a 4 bbl GTO, both with 4 spd.

I'm a '64 GTO fan, but I've never felt the Lemans, Tempest Custom, or Tempest should be valued as low relative to the GTO as they have. But the market sets the value, can't control that. Sadly, lots of them were cannibalized in favor of GTOs because they were not valued.

I like to see them today even with the 6 cyl engine. Like yours, many of them can have interesting options that were not often included on the GTOs.

If you aren't up to speed on the 326 story, you might not be aware that the '63 version was actually 337 CID. It had a 1/16" larger dia. bore (3-25/32") and exceeded what GM wanted to limit the displacement to. In response, PMD resorted to badging it as, and calling it, a 326 but left the dimensions unchanged.

In '64, they reduced the bore to make it a true 326.

I have often wished that they would have made the smaller displacement engine a short stroke, higher reving V8. Of course, by using the same stroke as the 389 they took advantage of a lot more commonality of parts & tooling. But one can dream.

IMO, the Pontiac A body is always super cool, no matter what badging is on it.

[The Champ]

Originally Posted by John V.

I don't have production nos. to reference, but I am convinced the 326 HO option was a lot rarer than the GTO option.

Reason being, the average buyer simply wanted a V8 and the majority were content with the 2 bbl 326 over the base 6 cyl. Production of the 2 bbl 326 far exceeded the production of the 6 cyl models.

For those that wanted more power, few were content to stop at the 4 bbl 326, they jumped right up to the 389 GTO.

I do not know how much more the GTO option cost vs. the 326 HO option, but it was not very much.

The 1964 GTO was a $295.90 option on the Pontiac LeMans. I'm not sure how much the 326 HO option was, but $295.90 (even back in 1964) wasn't that much more over the price of the 6 cylinder when you consider what you got - especially the extra 45 HP....

As you noted, the GTO was faster than the 326 HO - because the weight difference was marginal - according to the Ultimate GTO site - curb weight was 3423 for the coupe.

I've included scans of the Tempest and the LeMans Sport Coupes being within 42 pounds of each other - but of course that is with the base 215 ci 6 cylinder engine.

Adding the 326 HO with the dual exhausts would probably limit the weight difference to less than 50 pounds - if that. 50 pounds to gain 45 HP? You betcha!

[John V.]

The Champ, great scans but....

Are those from the Salesman's Catalog?

I contend they slightly misidentified the Lemans!

They depict and identify the 2237 Lemans but they call it a Hardtop Sports Coupe! The Sports Coupe is the 27 Body Style (same as depicted and identified for the Tempest Custom as a 2127).

The 37 Body Style should have been identified as the Hardtop Coupe.

Often the 2 dr. Hardtops were called a Sport Coupe (note the singular form of "Sport"), but at the outset of the '64 Model Year, the 27 Sports Coupe was offered in the 20, 21, & 22 Model Series. Shortly after Model Year intro, PMD announced the 37 Lemans Hardtop Coupe. I have seen confused designations for this Lemans Body Style elsewhere in Pontiac lit, but officially, I believe it was supposed to be simply the Hardtop Coupe.

Main weight difference between the Lemans and Tempest Custom or Tempest (20 Series) would be the Bucket Seats vs. the lighter Bench Seat.

Haven't checked the AMA specs, but the MPC shows the '64 Tempest Custom 25 lbs. heavier than the Tempest (basically the extra chrome trim I guess plus the carpeting, deluxe horn ring, and the dual horns) and then the Lemans is 20 lbs. heavier than the Tempest Custom due to the bucket seats. All as 27 Sports Coupes, all in base trim.

Hard to believe the 326 HO weighed even 25 lbs. less than a 4 bbl 389. So yeah, the HP was "worth" it.

Anybody know what the 326 HO option list price was?

I think the 2 bbl 326 was $108 on the Window Sticker. I figure the 4 bbl was at least $150.

Truth be known, I believe the GTO option was highway robbery at $295. You were paying a lot of that for the chrome engine dress up and the faux scoops on the hood. But I'm glad it happened for the history it made.

BTW, according to an engine production log with 1 month of '64 production remaining, PMD had produced right about 8000 326 HO engines (auto and man trans combined), that should tell you how rare they were. About the same no. of GTO Tri-Power engines had been produced with the vast majority of those being man trans.

[davidgto]

I bought a 65 one owner Lemans a while back that has the 4 barrel and #22 heads. I have not checked the block code. Car has never been touched or changed in any way. Never been painted or in an accident. It is a bucket console car. Is this an HO car. I have the protecto plate also. Been sitting in a building, bet you thought I was gonna say barn find, for years and I just brought it home and set it in another building until I can find some time to put it on the road unless a buyer shows up.
Is this an HO car??

dave

[John V.]

Yes, all 4 bbl 326 cars were "326 HO". They were high compression heads, premium fuel engines while the 2 bbl 326 was a regular fuel engine. They did not include any special exhaust manifolds as Pontiac did for the big motor 421 HO but you did get dual exhaust.

And if it wasn't for the GTO option, the 326 HO would have been the hot ticket for the '64/'65 A body.

[chinquapalian]

i can just see a 326 against a 350 Chevelle . good luck

[The Champ]

Originally Posted by John V.

The Champ, great scans but....

Are those from the Salesman's Catalog?

They are from my Dad's 1964 Pontiac Dealer's Sales Manual.

If you check the sticky above started by wareagle - I have the entire 1964 Tempest/LeMans/GTO scans posted there.

I think the 2 bbl 326 was $108 on the Window Sticker. I figure the 4 bbl was at least $150.

Truth be known, I believe the GTO option was highway robbery at $295. You were paying a lot of that for the chrome engine dress up and the faux scoops on the hood. But I'm glad it happened for the history it made.

Well, using your "guesstimate" of about $150.00 for the HO 326, it's only $145.00 for the extra 45 HP of the 389, the chrome engine dress up, the faux scoops, the GTO badging on the doors, dash, grill, front fenders, rear quarters, deck lid, the HD suspension, bigger front sway bar, bucket seats, 14x6 wheels and 7.50x14 tires (vs the 6.50x14's).

I'd say the GTO option was a bargain...

[jtea64]

The 326 H. O. V8 4 Barrel retailed for $173.31

[The Champ]

It sure would be great to add 63 cubes and 45 HP for $122.00 today!

Even without all the other stuff....

[John V.]

Originally Posted by chinquapalian

i can just see a 326 against a 350 Chevelle . good luck

No 350 CID for the Chevelle in '65. Pretty sure most of them got a 2 bbl 283. Others got the 4 bbl 283. You could get a 4 bbl 327 in a variety of flavors. Yes there was a Z-16 396 but production was almost non-existent and would need to be compared to the Tri-Power GTO, not the 326 HO. A Tempest 326 HO would not have been embarrassed by most 4 bbl 327s save for the special performance option L79. The L79 was not uncommon in '65 and probably a performance bargain. But I think also is more properly compared to a GTO despite the difference in cubes. IMO.

Originally Posted by jtea64

The 326 H. O. V8 4 Barrel retailed for $173.31

That's good input. Even more than I guessed and helps explain why the 326 HO was overlooked in favor of the GTO, despite........

Originally Posted by The Champ

Well, using your "guesstimate" of about $150.00 for the HO 326, it's only $145.00 for the extra 45 HP of the 389, the chrome engine dress up, the faux scoops, the GTO badging on the doors, dash, grill, front fenders, rear quarters, deck lid, the HD suspension, bigger front sway bar, bucket seats, 14x6 wheels and 7.50x14 tires (vs the 6.50x14's).

I'd say the GTO option was a bargain...

.......the fact that the additional cost for the GTO option is hard to justify in purely physical intrinsic terms.

I agree the GTO was a bargain in terms of visceral thrills. But not so much in terms of actual physical value.

Let's take a base '64 Lemans with the 326 HO and see if the GTO option was really bargain priced.

So "only" $122 more to get the 389 and the rest of the '64 GTO package. Most of that was surely for the engine even though the actual added cost was minimal. I'm not even sure there was more cast iron in the 389 block & crank vs. the 326 block & crank. But I'll figure the extra cost at $5. The larger pistons/rings cost PMD maybe $4 more for the 8, the larger valves/springs $4 extra for the 16. Cam was surely same cost no matter how they ground it but I'll allow $4 extra cost for the GTO lifters and drilled rockers. Same intake and essentially same carb for both. Same starter motor for both.

$3 extra for the std. GTO clutched fan, $2 extra for the bigger radiator and extra coolant. 50 cents for an additional qt. of oil and larger oil pan.

The chrome engine dress up stuff (valve covers, air cleaner, oil fill cap) I'll figure at $10 additional cost including extra labor to mask the valve covers.

$2.50 for the dash applique including labor. GTO dash emblem was an even trade for the Lemans dash emblem. Marginally heavier coils maybe $2 more for the 4 of 'em. Heavier stabilizer bar couldn't have cost Pontiac more than a $1.50 extra. I doubt Delco charged any different for the GTO standard shocks vs. the Lemans V8 std. shocks.

Bucket seats were std. in the Lemans.

The exterior badging was not "extra", just different. Including the front fender 326 badging vs. the GTO 6.5L badges. But I'll allow $3 extra cost for the lot. Wait, the Lemans rear qtr spears were deleted, so make that $1.50 extra cost for the lot (and not so sure this shouldn't be a cost reduction).

The faux scoops I'll figure the PMD cost at $10 for the pair including installation labor and tooling cost for the hood.

Exhaust system essentially same cost for both (I think the mufflers may have been slightly different).

The 326 got 7.00x14 tires on 5" wide wheels as std., the GTO got the 7.50x14 on 6" wide wheels.

5 of 'em in the set, I'll allow $2 each as added cost and I think that is being overly generous.

Same jack, bumpers, horns, and steering wheel. Same carpeting and other interior appointments.

Oops, almost forgot the floor shifted 3 spd. Keeping in mind that the 4 spd option cost the same for a 326 HO Lemans as for a GTO so the difference could not have been significant, I'll throw in another $10 cost for the pan cutout and shifter (parts & labor) vs. the regular column mounted shifter to be fair.

Add it all up and the GTO extras cost Pontiac $70 and that is being very generous. The rest was overhead and profit ($52).

I believe that margin was a larger percentage than on most options. And the margin on the 326 HO option was probably pretty fat as well, so the total margin on the GTO option was probably on the order of $150.

That fat margin helped PMD pay for all of the GTO advertising and promotion.

The GTO was a marketing masterpiece. If PMD had offered the 389 at a "fair" cost based price as a special equipment option in the Lemans without any unique model identification or badging perhaps it would have sold a couple hundred copies like the Z16.

The mystique of the GTO brand exceeded the intrinsic value of the parts and pieces. The value of the visceral thrills it gave to a generation just coming of age far exceeded the price for the option.

That is why I think it was a bargain.

Soon after I had fallen for the '64 GTO as a new driver, I loved reading the retrospective article David E. Davis, Jr. penned for the Jan. '75 Car & Driver. He compared the intros of the Mustang and GTO.

"....the GTO appeared on the American scene like a Methodist minister leaving a massage parlor".

But the most memorable line in the article to me was "....I remember only that the first Mustang I drove caused me to cut my finger on an exposed sheetmetal edge in the trunk, while my first ride in a GTO left me with a feeling like losing my virginity, going into combat and tasting my first draft beer all in about seven seconds."

That about summed it up for me. The GTO option may have been overpriced for what it included. But for how a GTO made you feel, the price was truly a bargain.

Of course, at 18, I only paid $150 for a one owner '64 GTO convertible. That really was a bargain.

The 326 HO lacks the mystique of the GTO and I contend sold in low nos. precisely because the GTO option only added another $4/month to the typical 36 month car loan at that time.

But I still think a 326 HO is cool to see today.

A LOT cooler than a 283 equipped Chevelle.

[The Champ]

John

You always pay more for the options....

That's why they never show the base car without options in the promotional materials.

I totally get your nuts and bolts approach to the additional costs - and think you are quite accurate in your assessment.

But I'll defend my comments about it being a bargain. If you purchased the 326 HO because it was $122.00 cheaper (or $4 per month on your car loan) - what would it have cost you later to try and get that extra 45 HP?

The GTO option may have been overpriced for what it included. But for how a GTO made you feel, the price was truly a bargain.

And that's one of the reasons I didn't understand Tom V's post about the Tempest/LeMans being cheaper, lighter and faster. At least not new, anyway.

If he was referring to buying a used Tempest/LeMans back in the late 60's and putting a fresh race motor in, then the acquisition cost would have been lower. But as we've discussed - they really weren't much lighter (if at all).

As to the HO 326 - I agree with you comment:

A LOT cooler than a 283 equipped Chevelle.

That Chevelle is just a common car. The 326 HO is special!

[our 65 GTO]

It's a shame but I bet a bunch of these were 'made' into GTOs and their HO326s pulled. I have always admired some of the lesser known performance cars and actually enjoy seeing them.
I guess I like the car that ran great and was a super bargain.

[Jerry H.]

I bought a 65 Lemans with the 326 HO, 4 speed way back in the mid 80's. It was a one owner car out of PA. Being untouched, it had rust in the trunk and lower quarters. SO, I'm guilty. Some patch work in the trunk and quarters, a respray (after new GTO emblems), GTO hood, chrome valve covers and air cleaner from a junk yard, and new carpets and tires and I had a nice running GTO clone. I sold it to a knowing buyer for $4300 and we were both happy!

One thing the different between the GTO and the Lemans HO is the 4 speed. GTO got the Muncie, and the Lemans got the Dearborn, Ford, or whatever. You CAN tell the difference.

[The Champ]

Originally Posted by Jerry H.

One thing the different between the GTO and the Lemans HO is the 4 speed. GTO got the Muncie, and the Lemans got the Dearborn, Ford, or whatever. You CAN tell the difference.

That's another factor that John and I missed on the value of the GTO option.

Also - most likely - the Hurst shifter wasn't on the 326 HO.

The GTO package is starting to look like a better value all the time...