[John V.]

Hmmm, not according to the '64 Tempest Inspector's Guide.

The ONLY 4 spd offered for the '64 Tempest was the Muncie.

p/n 9774825 was the Muncie wide ratio trans used for all applications, all tire sizes, all ratios except 3.90 axle.

p/n 9774826 was the Muncie wide ratio trans used for all applications with 3.90 axle.

In April '64, p/n 9777000 was released for the Muncie close ratio. It was available as a Special Equipment option and required GTO option, Tri-Power option, 3.90 axle, metallic brake option, HD rad, & HD fan as mandatory additional options.

All of them made use of the Hurst shifter which was a Competition Plus shifter body although used PMD linkage and stick lever, so not quite what Hurst sold over the counter as a Competition Plus shifter. The stick lever depended on bucket or bench seat.

In '65, the same Muncie trans choices were again used in the Tempest but all new p/ns were issued.

The '65 shifter was revised and there was a variety of stick lever styles that were used. I am not up to speed on all of the whys and wherefores, generally, the GTO got the lever stamped "HURST" but apparently not all did for reasons that apparently aren't completely understood. Once again though, all of the shifter bodies should have been the Hurst Competition Plus.

Jerry, perhaps you are remembering the introduction at mid '65 of the HD 3 spd trans. It was a top loader Dearborn trans, fully synchronized.

According to the mid year announcement, it was optional on ALL V8 Tempests. This included the GTO, it was not standard in the GTO option package but an extra cost option.

Since the 4 spd was an option, we didn't miss that in figuring the value of the GTO option package.

Jerry, if your '65 326 HO had a Dearborn trans in it, it either was the optional HD 3 spd which was a better trans than the std GTO 3 spd Muncie or if it was a Dearborn 4 spd, it could not have been original to the car.

The base tranny was a 3 spd and all V8 Tempests including GTO got the same Muncie 3 spd as the base trans. Only difference was, the GTO got the floor shift linkage (don't recall if it was a Hurst shifter body used with the 3 spd) as std., the others got the column shift linkage as std. A Lemans with Console got the same shifter body as the GTO but that would have been extra cost.

I did account for this difference (added $10), including the floor pan cutout for the floor shift, although I'm not sure there was really any appreciable cost difference between the parts used for each (floor shift vs. column shift).

Regardless, for '64 & '65, if you ordered a 4 spd in any Tempest, you got a Muncie. And the 4 spd option was the same price with or without the GTO option. And they all used a Hurst shifter body.

Jerry, no doubt it is easy to tell the difference between a Muncie 4 spd and a Dearborn 4 spd.

But something doesn't add up about the '65 326 HO Lemans you bought way back when since a Dearborn 4 spd was not a factory install in any '64 or '65 Tempest.

Are you sure it wasn't a 3 spd?

[geeteeohguy]

I'll add this: a good friend of mine just sold a '64 LeMans HO 4 speed convertible project car that he bought in 1979 and took apart to restore (but never did). Fortunately, the car was stored inside. It has a Muncie trans and a Hurst shifter, but no logo on the shift handle. It's the real deal. Unfortunately, the guy who bought it is turning it into, guess what---yet another GTO clone. In his defense, though the original block has been lost since the '70's and a 76x 389 tripower engine had been transplanted way back when.

[richard sargent]

My 64 326 HO 4 speed wagon has a Hurst round bar no logo linkage for a bench seat with extra length and bend for a bench seat.

Dual exhausts was a extra charge for a HO see window sticker.

I will check the diameter of the front stabilizer bar because it has HD suspension.

[27jalopy]

Even though dual exhaust is charged separately on the sticker, was it still "required" or standard with the HO option? I wonder because the three 326 original HO cars I'm familiar with all had dual exhaust. Even the 4-door '65 Le Mans that dad bought as a parts car back around 2000.

(It had 40,000 original miles and was completely original. Some nice parts, too, like complete AC (dash was perfect) and remote trunk release).

I wish dad would have kept the long block that the Le Mans convertible was built with originally. When I first had the car it was still there. Burned lots of oil, but would still do little mini peel-outs with the 2 speed auto. Dad got a rebuilt Pontiac 350 for super cheap and swapped long blocks. And my little brother has the original motor from the '65 4-door parts car, and will not let me have it!!

[John V.]

Rich, that is a repro Window Sticker. Aside from being incorrectly formatted (PHS only formats based on the Pontiac Plant Window Stickers, Fremont laid them out differently), the repro Window Sticker would not be compelling evidence.

However, I went back and checked your PHS Shipping Manifest record.

At Fremont, the options are listed by UPC (and were listed on the original Fremont Window Sticker in alphabetical order by UPC, not the numeric order by Sales Code like the Pontiac Plant did it).

Your Manifest shows:

N10 DUAL EXH.

I had expected to see an asterisk in front of this item. But there is none. So it would appear that the Dual Exhaust was listed as an extra cost option on your Manifest.

This comes as a surprise. Your car was a fairly early 11D build.

Same option will be listed on the Fremont Manifests for GTOs.

But it will have an asterisk (*) in front of it to indicate it was NOT extra cost (as expected for a GTO and even for builds earlier than yours), and consequently did not show up on the Window Sticker.

I wonder if there was a running change shortly after yours was built. Or even possible that Fremont erroneously showed it without the asterisk at the start of the year and later got that corrected.

Reason I say this relates to three pieces of evidence.

1. The MPC lists the muffler for the single exhaust and identifies the application as T/8-2 B.C. Same thing for the single exhaust crossover head pipe, application is T/8-2 B.C.

2. The '64 Tempest Inspector's Guide lists Sales Code 511 for the Dual Exhaust as "Std. L76, Option L30 only". The L76 is the UPC for the 4 bbl 326, L30 is the UPC for the 2 bbl 326. The Guide compiles all engineering releases as of Dec. 19, 1963 but there is no indication that this particular item had been revised after the start of production.

3. The '64 Tempest Order Form copy I have is a later revision as it lists the Seat Belt Delete option added after Dec. 31, 1963. But it lists Sales Code 511 for the Dual Exhaust with the statement "ORDER ON V-8 ONLY - STD. ON HO". This is consistent with the Inspector's Guide and the Service Parts descriptions.


The fact that the Dual Exhaust option is NOT asterisked on your Manifest really surprises me.

It is even possible that Fremont recognized the error and didn't list it on your original Window Sticker despite the failure to code the asterisk on the Manifest. Or at the very least, PMD might have omitted the charge on the Dealer Invoice. Otherwise the Dealer could have pursued a Credit to correct the mistake if he was overcharged on the Dealer Invoice.

Would be interesting to see later Fremont Manifests for 326 HO builds to see if they do show the asterisk.

For now, I'm going to stand by my contention that the Dual Exhaust was NOT extra cost when you ordered the 4 bbl 326 despite the coding on your Manifest.

The included cost of the dual exhaust would explain the $65 price difference between the 2 bbl 326 and the 326 HO options, surely the 4 bbl carb did not cost that much more than the 2 bbl carb. I do not think it is logical any other way.

[Jerry H.]

John, it definitely had the 4 speed, and it was definitely was the Dearborn, not the Muncie. So evidently it must have been changed out at sometime. This car looked 'untouched' when I purchased it, but you never know.

I've got the original window sticker out in my shop somewhere. I haven't been out there since my accident, but when I'm able I'll try to find it, scan it and post it here.

[John V.]

Jerry, wonder if it was originally equipped with the HD 3 spd Dearborn trans and the "easy" swap to 4 spd was to use a Dearborn 4 spd? I'm thinking they may have been similar in the way the 3 spd Muncie was similar to the 4 spd Muncie, same pan cutout for the floor shift making for an easy swap.

My 1st '64 GTO was equipped with the base 3 spd Muncie. Original owner left it that way but soon after I bought it in '73, I swapped in a Muncie 4 spd. At the time, I believed the 4 spd was just so much cooler.

The original Window Sticker should show the trans option if it was other than the base Muncie 3 spd. Will be interesting to learn.

[27jalopy]

I think an original '65 convertible, 4 speed 326 HO Le Mans with rally gauges would be super duper cool. And a '64 hardtop HO with 4 speed, '64 tach and wood wheel...

I also wish the 326 HO had been built a bit different, like able to rev higher, as John V said. But I'm still a big fan of HO!

[Jerry H.]

Originally Posted by John V.

Jerry, wonder if it was originally equipped with the HD 3 spd Dearborn trans and the "easy" swap to 4 spd was to use a Dearborn 4 spd? I'm thinking they may have been similar in the way the 3 spd Muncie was similar to the 4 spd Muncie, same pan cutout for the floor shift making for an easy swap.

My 1st '64 GTO was equipped with the base 3 spd Muncie. Original owner left it that way but soon after I bought it in '73, I swapped in a Muncie 4 spd. At the time, I believed the 4 spd was just so much cooler.

The original Window Sticker should show the trans option if it was other than the base Muncie 3 spd. Will be interesting to learn.

I got a chance to get out to the shop yesterday when my daughter and her boyfriend came by. That window sticker wasn't where I remember it being and I couldn't find it anywhere. But I do definitely remember that it was a 4 speed, not a 3 speed. The tranny must have been changed at some point since it was not a Muncie.

[geeteeohguy]

In 40 years of working on these cars, I've never heard of a Dearborn 4 Speed. Can't find one anywhere on line, either. Or any information about one ever existing. I could be wrong and uninformed, though. The Dearborn unit used in Pontiacs was a 3 speed only, as far as I can tell. Wouldn't a "Dearborn 4 speed" be a Toploader Ford gearbox?

[John V.]

Jeff, yes, the "Dearborn" would be the "toploader".

Jerry had surmised the 4 spd in the '65 Lemans he bought in the '80s was untouched and representative of another difference between the GTO and the Lemans.

You are correct, Pontiac did not use the 4 spd toploader but the 3 spd Heavy Duty option trans was the toploader. It could be had in any '65 Pontiac A body (after the option was announced at mid year).

My guess is that the car Jerry bought may have originally been optioned with the HD 3 spd and somewhere along the way, it was swapped to a 4 spd toploader.

Just like the 4 spd Muncie was an easy swap for the base 3 spd Muncie, I think it was pretty simple to swap the optional '65 HD 3 spd toploader for a 4 spd toploader out of a Mustang or some such Ford product.

Found these on ebay, they look physically interchangeable.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1965-1966-19...809f85&vxp=mtr

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1964-1965-FO...ffd53a&vxp=mtr

If Jerry ever finds the Window Sticker for his Lemans, we'll know for sure what was original in it.

But I think he understands now that the Dearborn toploader 4 spd was not original to his Lemans, never offered by Pontiac.

[Craig Parker]

I bought a 66 GTO in the mid 80's. I took the trans. out to switch to a 4 speed. To the best of my knowledge it was a 3 speed manual. I remember for sure though that on the side of trans. it had FO MO CO. I assumed Ford Motor Co. Did General Motors put Ford trans. in GTO's back then???

[geeteeohguy]

Yes, the HD three speed was a Dearborn produced Ford mfg. unit.