[gtofreek]

I always preferred the bearing over a bushing until the bearing in my 428 seized and chewed up the input shaft, then spun in the crank. Ruined the hole in the crank, and chewed up the input shaft of my tranny. Started thinking the bushing wasn't such a bad idea after that. I suppose a bearing seizure is quite rare though, and I will probably chance one again in my 64 GTO. My bearing seizure was back in the mid 80's before the Chinese stuff started coming over, so it wasn't from that.

[propuckstopper]

Originally Posted by gtofreek

I always preferred the bearing over a bushing until the bearing in my 428 seized and chewed up the input shaft, then spun in the crank. Ruined the hole in the crank, and chewed up the input shaft of my tranny. Started thinking the bushing wasn't such a bad idea after that. I suppose a bearing seizure is quite rare though, and I will probably chance one again in my 64 GTO. My bearing seizure was back in the mid 80's before the Chinese stuff started coming over, so it wasn't from that.

That is the message I continue to find in my research on this topic. I share your thinking in that roller bearing seizure is likely pretty rare, especially with a product like Timken. If a roller bearing does fail, however, it can get ugly.

On the other hand, if an Oilite bronze bushing fails, it is not hard enough to bugger up anything.

We will see how this whole thing works out, I guess. If the Oilite bronze bushing doesn't work out, it will be off to a 7109 Timken bearing for me.

[RamAirIV28]

Originally Posted by geeteeohguy

Have always used bearings, not bushings. For the past 35 years and a ton of miles, never a single problem. If the trans/bellhousing does not line up properly, it needs to be fixed. JMHO. Use a bearing and be done with it, as stated previously.

exactly, if the tranny or the bell housing dont line up.....

then, if you did a search you would note that there are other possible ways the bearing can and will fail if its not manufactured properly or installed improperly and when it failes it takes out a lot of other much more expensive parts too so unless your footing the bill ....

really a bushing is fool proof and virtually indistructable pretty much reusable too

so...

do a search....on this forum....

then if you have many hours to waste and thousands of dollars to risk then roll that dice

and remember, there are many failure modes unrelated to manufacture quality .

what did Shakespeare say?.... Betwix cup and lip lies many a slip.....

[GTO JOHN]

I have always used the Dorman bushing with no issues.

http://www.dormanproducts.com/p-18309-690-023.aspx

Hindsight now says I will lube the next one a bit.

[geeteeohguy]

Ram AIR, I'll keep on rolling the dice. The current input bearing has been working in my '65 since 1984.....I guess it would have failed by now. Back then, parts were made in the USA. I'm not worried a bit.

[Jurassicgto]

Had a bearing come apart on me last fall during a 1/4 mile launch. Just the plastic shield part broke up. Those plastic pieces took out my clutch and flywheel. Had a spare flywheel but a new clutch and disc cost me over 500 bucks not to mention all the work involved. Just installed a bushing after soaking it in that friction reducer stuff Big Daddy Don Garlits sells. probably soaked for a few months since I could never find time to install it. have a cryoed and polished input shaft by liberty transmission so hopefully will do the trick. Bellhousing was aligned according to Browell alignment tool. Those things are really easy to use by the way.

[propuckstopper]

Originally Posted by Jurassicgto

Had a bearing come apart on me last fall during a 1/4 mile launch. Just the plastic shield part broke up. Those plastic pieces took out my clutch and flywheel. Had a spare flywheel but a new clutch and disc cost me over 500 bucks not to mention all the work involved. Just installed a bushing after soaking it in that friction reducer stuff Big Daddy Don Garlits sells. probably soaked for a few months since I could never find time to install it. have a cryoed and polished input shaft by liberty transmission so hopefully will do the trick. Bellhousing was aligned according to Browell alignment tool. Those things are really easy to use by the way.

Wow. Sorry to hear of your misfortune. That's no good, for sure.

As I mentioned in a previous post in this thread, I did go through some work and effort to have a custom Oilite bushing made up. The main reason I did this is because I thought that these cars originally came from the factory with a bushing. Why? Well, the vendor I bought the steel (magnetic) bushing from only offered a bushing (but not a bearing) in their catalogue. Being a true newbie to four-speed stuff, I didn't know that bearings were even available for this application. After installing and hearing the squealing produced by this steel bushing, I immediately Googled the issue and came upon piles of information on these undesirable steel bushings. So my next move was to track down a proper Oilite bushing, and I finally got one in my hands. But I still did not yet know that these cars actually left the factory with a bearing!

It was not until I consulted both my 1965 and 1968 shop manuals that I realized these cars came from the factory with a bearing. Which leads me to wonder now:

The research I did uncovered many people that don't like the bearings because of possible bell housing misalignment. They say if you are ever to use a bearing, you must make sure that your bell housing alignment is spot on. And this makes nothing but sense to me.

BUT...How many of these cars over the years were driven into Joe's Transmission for a clutch replacement, which likely would have included replacement of the pilot bearing? My bet is that Joe's Transmission not once checked bell housing alignment. Ever. They would have removed the old pilot bearing, installed a new one, replaced the clutch, and told the customer to have a nice day. Yet somehow, these bearings survived. My guess is that GM must have had pretty darn good alignment from the factory, seeing that these cars left the factory with a bearing.

Anyway, here I now sit with a brand new Oilite pilot bushing in my car. I can't yet give a report on its performance, as we have sixteen-thousand feet of snow here and the car is resting in the garage until at least May.

But I do know three things, and I hope it saves someone some hassle or helps them with their choice down the road.

1. There exists steel (magnetic) pilot bushings out there in the marketplace. If you choose to go this route, be sure to lube the bushing to avoid metal-to-metal contact. These magnetic bushings sell for about $5.00 or so.

2. You can buy an Oilite pilot bushing from places like Autogear or McLeod Clutches. No lube is necessary, and the bushing is softer than the input shaft of the transmission. These Oilite bushings cost about $40.00 or so.

3. You can do what the factory did, and use a roller bearing. You can install it as-is and take your chances, or check and correct any bell housing misalignment issues.

In hindsight, I think any of the above solutions will work.

Jeez. For the amount of time and research I have done on this topic, I could have done a frame-off!

[SD421]

Great thread.
I have a question.

Does anyone know if the Dorman input shaft bearing comes in a roller type (not bronze) and did Dorman also sell it as a National #7109 part?

Are these the same part or would Dorman have a different part#?

This is the link to what I ordered off of ebay .
Upon opening the package, its actually a National #7109 bearing made in China. http://www.ebay.com/itm/261314051999...382016&vxp=mtr
I could've picked this up at the local parts store.


Don

[propuckstopper]

Originally Posted by SD421

Great thread.
I have a question.

Does anyone know if the Dorman input shaft bearing comes in a roller type (not bronze) and did Dorman also sell it as a National #7109 part?

Are these the same part or would Dorman have a different part#?

This is the link to what I ordered off of ebay .
Upon opening the package, its actually a National #7109 bearing made in China. http://www.ebay.com/itm/261314051999...382016&vxp=mtr
I could've picked this up at the local parts store.


Don

You probably could have got it at the parts store, or even a local bearing/power transmission outlet.

If I went the roller bearing route I would feel better with a Timken (USA) or an NTN (Japan). We have had tremendous luck with both brands in high demand circle track and snowmobile racing applications. I have since looked up this bearing (7109) in an NTN and it doesn't look like it is available. But I did find this:

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/tmk-7109

Hope this helps!

[pugslyx234]

When I changed over from an auto I tried to install the bearing and it was to sloppy but the bushing fit perfect I really didnt understand why but it went that way.

[geeteeohguy]

Another thing: I've always used a bearing, as I stated, but it's been a long time since I put a clutch in one of these cars. The last one was 20 years ago with a friend's car. The pilot bearings had NO PLASTIC anywhere on or in them. The one that's been in my '65 for the past 30 years is a Timken, and it's a ball bearing, not a roller bearing. And yes, I always lube these on install with hi-temp synthetic wheel bearing grease. Being a ball type bearing, the inner race has the ability to tilt a bit if the trans/bellhousing alignment is not perfect. A roller bearing won't allow this. Plastic pilot bearings? You have got to be kidding.

[gtofreek]

He's talking about the plastic dust covers that come on sealed bearings. The bearing itself is not plastic.

[propuckstopper]

Originally Posted by gtofreek

He's talking about the plastic dust covers that come on sealed bearings. The bearing itself is not plastic.

I agree. They are a removable type dust cover. They can be removed with a pick or similar tool if desired. Many snowmobile guys around here pick the seals out of their bogey wheels, clean the roller bearing in solvent, repack it with grease, and reinstall the dust seals.

In this case, of course, they are more like "snow seals".

But you get the picture.

[dracowizard]

Originally Posted by GTO Dan

FWIW...Pontiac used a bearing from the factory in the (70,71,72) A-Bodies that I've owned.

I have run a stick in all my Pontiacs for over 30 years for thousands of miles. One street combo at over 600 hp/TQ in a 3600 lb GTO power shifted on drag radials. Never a failure from the bearing. Currently run over 800 hp in my GTO running a Timken bearing (none better). When people tell you not to run the bearing because they will fail, ask them if they also swap out their wheel bearings for a bushing.

The tolerances need to be tight and when the bellhousing is properly indexed to the block the trans will go on and off smoothly and the parts will last.

Order the Timken 7109 clutch pilot bearing from Summit Racing for $24.97, check the bellhousing alignment, check to see the inputshaft spins true and be done with it.

Good luck.

Seen this and it's my preference as well as I do my 65.Do have a couple of questions about the 7109 though. First is the bearing correct for my Tremec 5sp i'll be using (maybe I need to mic the input shaft!) and also I see what appears to be a retaining clip or lip on the bearing.Does the bearing not mount flush?

[geeteeohguy]

Gotcha. The bearings I've used had no dust seal and were open on the crankshaft side. I've always packed the open side with grease. Nowhere for dust/dirt to get in once it is installed.

[RamAirIV28]

No.... Got You!

do a search here on this site and you will see that these bearings come with no seal on either side, a seal on one side and a seal on both sides.

also.....that same search will show that the seal can be of metal, plastic or a composite material called micarta (?)

Oh and in addition to god knows what the chinese are selling, there is two types of bearing type bushing, (a ball and a roller type) a lubricated bronze bushing and currently a composite plastic bushing.

all this information is here on this site if you do a search.

you may or may not have any concern about the grease you pack in the bearing unless you lucky enough that it only seaps out with centrifugal force and ruins your clutch and disc. its not about dust/dirt getting in... its about the grease getting out. why cant people get that?

if it were to actually fail, it would do a lot more(read expensive) damage than that. don't fight it, do a search

[geeteeohguy]

Ram Air, respectfully, I have never had an issue. In decades. I pack a small amount of grease in the open side of the bearing, and that open side gets installed into the crankshaft. The input shaft of the trans then gets installed inside the inner race of the bearing. There is no place for the grease to go. There is no way it can get out and past the input shaft. Centrifugal force would simply throw any excess on the inside of the crank flange, but I haven't had even this happen, as I use a very small amount of grease. I probably put more grease on the input shaft splines to help out the clutch plate. The "Gotcha" was referring to me not knowing about the plastic covers on the newer bearings. That I got the point. It had nothing to do with one-upmanship.

[ITSBACK]

How much grease do you use on a bushing? Do you fill behind it or just a little bit?

[RamAirIV28]

Originally Posted by geeteeohguy

Ram Air, respectfully, I have never had an issue. In decades. I pack a small amount of grease in the open side of the bearing, and that open side gets installed into the crankshaft. The input shaft of the trans then gets installed inside the inner race of the bearing. There is no place for the grease to go. There is no way it can get out and past the input shaft. Centrifugal force would simply throw any excess on the inside of the crank flange, but I haven't had even this happen, as I use a very small amount of grease. I probably put more grease on the input shaft splines to help out the clutch plate. The "Gotcha" was referring to me not knowing about the plastic covers on the newer bearings. That I got the point. It had nothing to do with one-upmanship.

fair enough, you are one person who has had good luck and no failure with grease and failed bearings. but others replying to this thread and other threads on this forum can tell of major and expensive problems resulting from a failed bearing.

you are correct that a small amount or grease will be slung out when its put on the imput shaft befor installing the tranny. a little goes a long way

but I have seen where it will seap past the outer race of the bearing between the bearing and the crank. in most time but not all times its from over geasing the bearing itself or from leaving grease in the crank shaft after removing the bearing... or the bushing for that matter.

no its got nothing to do with one up manship on this side either. just trying to put good info out there and reffering to other information already on this forum where this has been hashed to death. the final choice is ours alone to make but its important to appreciate all the facts on both sides.

I guess I mis understood what you meant when you said gotcha when you stated that the bearing you installed had no seal and were open on the crankshaft side, actually it would be open on both sides if it had no seal and it would not matter which side is the crank side, and you really do want at least the fly wheel side to be sealed or you will have a problem with grease being slung out. No one up manship here, just hoping that readers understand that its important when installing a geased bearing that there can be a lot of misinformation and confusion out there.

Me? I always use a bushing and re use a bushing and never had another failure

[geeteeohguy]

Well stated. To clarify, the bearings I have installed were closed on one side and open on the other side. Sheet metal cover. So I installed the open side towards the crank. But the last one of these bearings I installed was in 1994 in a friend's car, and it's still ok, too. I use so little grease that there is virtually none in the pocket of the crankshaft at all. Just enough to barely pack the bearing. Have also used oilite bushings in customer cars with no issues, either.