[David Jones]

I personally never saw the 73-74 GTO as a "real" GTO. I felt the same way about the 2004-06 GTO. I'm sure they were all great cars but it seems to me that in both cases Pontiac was trying to sell cars and the GTO name was available.

[71SportRagtop]

Originally Posted by 77 Canamman

It's the uninformed, like you, in this hobby that make it very aggravating at times. The '73 Buick Gran Sport Stage One was a hot runner, and the 455 GTO in '73 still performed well, clocking high 14's all day long. The 442 L77 455 4 speed ran excellent too. The 5.0's were a boxy joke out of the box, as were everything from the 80's except the GN or GNX.

Too bad there isn't a Supra in your future...

So let me get this straight. I asked for people to make a list of the hot performance cars available from 1972 to the mid 80's other than the SD T/A's. You listed two cars for that 13-14 year period. The 73 Gran Sport Stage 1 and a high 14 second 73 GTO...and this makes me uninformed??

Here's what I googled about the 73 GS Stage 1...

http://www.musclecarclub.com/musclec...-history.shtml

This link says the car ran 15.3 seconds in the 1/4. If that's fast to you then more power to you. Funny thing is that my wife's 4 cylinder WRX, a lot of modern minivans, and pretty much any 5.0 Mustang will smoke that Stage 1 Buick and the 73 GTO that you are calling me uninformed about.

My point was that other than the 73/74 SD T/A's, the 73 and up cars of ALL makes lacked the performance and charisma of the 64-72 models. Sales figures, fan loyalty, and the overall popularity of the 64-72 models would seem to support my statements. Again, I'm struggling to understand how this makes me uninformed.

[Sirrotica]

I don't consider the '04-'06 GTOs to be part of the same legacy. I always thought they were great cars, great bang for the buck. Just felt they had no direct connection to the '64-'74 GTOs. And the most unfortunate thing was Lutz's dumb move to name them GTO. The Monaro did not need the GTO nameplate and it obviously had a polarizing effect within the Pontiac hobby.

As I said earlier, the 04-06 GTOs are the new red headed step child that once was the honor of the 73-74 cars. And even before the 73-74 GTOs were on the scene the 71 and 72 GTOs were not real GTOs. By lowering the C/R and using net horsepower ratings instead of the gross HP ratings used previously by car manufacturers, those cars were not "REAL GTOs in that time period.

Same as the 73-74 GTOs were not readily accepted when new, but were by many later on, the 04-06s are gaining popularity amongst Pontiac fans too. There are no where as many people on this site voicing disdain for the 21st century GTOs as before and insisting they aren't real GTOs. Pontiac does not have a lock on those three letters, Ferrari had them in 62 and Pontiac used them much to the horror of Ferrari fans.

The Gran Turisimo Omologato true meaning is;

GTO stood for Gran Turismo Omologato, or, in plain English, Grand Touring Homologated. The word "homologation" was used to describe a race car constructed from a variety of parts in sufficient quantities to be approved for production-class competition by the International Automobile Federation. (FIA)

As it turned out, a limited edition Ferrari was already using the GTO name. But, as the initials could not be copy-righted, it was no problem for Pontiac to adopt them for its newest creation. In the '60s, it was GM policy that no specific model could have more than 10 pounds of total weight per cubic inch of displacement. Since the GTO weighed about 3,500 pounds, it meant that the 389 motor was too large by nearly 40CI. DeLorean's way around this rule was to make the GTO, a Le Mans option, instead of a separate model. That somewhat loose interpretation of corporate edict allowed the beefed-up Pontiac to sneak by top management so long as nobody looked too carefully.

I hate to break it to people that haven't done their homework, but Holden was using the GTO badge down under on the same car long before Lutz had the idea to use it on the Pontiac derivative. Yes there are Holden GTOs too, so why shouldn't the Pontiac derivative not be called a GTO? Holden was using the GTO model designation long before Lutz or Pontiac got involved, 2001 was the first year for the Holden HSV GTO Coupe. See below a HSV GTO pressed into police duty, note the GTO emblem on the rear of the ground effect skirt, there was also a GTO grille emblem on the same car on the left lower grille, the same placement that the "REAL" GTOs have....................................

[David Jones]

Holden's "GTO" was the low spec, entry level version. Since approx 2001. "Long" before?

[Sirrotica]

Holden's "GTO" was the low spec, entry level version. Since approx 2001. "Long" before?

WRONG!!!!!!!!

The Commodore is the entry level Holden...............

3 model years isn't an eternity, but it's not 2 weeks either. The point being neither Lutz nor Pontiac management just stuck the GTO moniker on that car, the car already had it and was in production for 3 years.


It was their Holden Special Vehicle (HSV) and it had the top performance options available. A true GTO according to the definition. As I already said, people who don't do their home work. Available with either a 5.7 LS engine later a 6.0 LS engine. Here's a quote from the Aussie press;

Further enhancements to the car’s bold street presence can be found in special badges and black brake callipers, the limited edition HSV build number painted on the boot lid in the same colour, as well as HSV 10-spoke 19-inch alloy wheels (Light Gold on Black cars and Chrome Shadow with the other combinations). There is also an individual rear profile for LE with the deletion of the usual GTO rear spoiler, and the addition of a roof spoiler.

Interior Enhancements will also include Premium dashboard highlights and Bluetooth. Braking is upgraded to an AP Racing 4 Piston Premium System.

Naturally, the limited edition LE GTO Coupé shares the remainder of its awesome specification with the regular Coupe GTO model, including the exclusive to HSV, 6.0 litre LS2 V8 which produces an extraordinary 297kW @ 6000rpm and 530Nm @ 4400rpm and will accelerate to 100kmh in just over 5 seconds.

At an estimated RRP of $83,990 RRP (plus ORC) the LE GTO Coupé delivers knockout styling, an outstanding level of driver enjoyment as well as impressive luxury appointments, at a price that makes it as formidable in terms of value for money as it is on the road. Like its predecessors, it’s sure to become an instant favourite.

0-100KPH or, 62 MPH in 5 seconds, is not an entry level vehicle.

[John V.]

Sirrotica, just as I came to better appreciate the '73 GTO many years after it was being sold new, perhaps the '04-'06 GTO will be better appreciated by hobbyists in the future who hated it when it was new. However, its limited popularity and production may mean it will never enjoy the kind of hobby popularity of the '64-'74 GTOs. Time will tell.

Would you not agree that the use of the GTO nameplate here in the U.S. had a negative impact on sales of the Aussie built Pontiac when the cars were new? My point is, if the car had NOT been badged a GTO, Pontiac would have avoided the polarized reaction to the name. Did anybody buy one because of the name that would have said no thanks if it carried a different name? Hard for me to imagine that being the case. Meanwhile I'm convinced that a lot of potential buyers in the target market were turned off either because of their own reaction to the name or because of the negative reaction of so many Pontiac aficionados who absolutely hated that Pontiac attached the GTO badge to "that" car. I believe it was a marketing blunder that cost Pontiac sales.

So what if Holden was peddling a GTO in Australia. Mitsubishi sold a GTO in Japan throughout the '90s. They were smart enough to rebadge it for the U.S. market.

[David Jones]

The GTS was the top level HSV to start with, but they couldn't give them away. The GTO was the opener. The term "entry level" applies.

And yes, 5 seconds to 60 is fast but put that engine in a mail truck and it would be fast too.

I can assure you that Holden calling one of their Monaro's a GTO had NOTHING to do with Pontiac calling their import a GTO. Nobody here new anything about a Holden HSV GTO in 2004 (or now....) and considering how many they sold in Australia, few people down there did either.

[MikeNoun]

What do 1/4 times have to do with determining what a "real" GTO is? The GTO wasn't the fastest car in the world, or the fastest car in Detroit. In fact, it wasn't even the fastest car available from Pontiac between 1967-1974.

There were tens of thousands of 1964-1972 GTO's built that were slower than 1973-1974 GTO's.

[71SportRagtop]

Originally Posted by MikeNoun

What do 1/4 times have to do with determining what a "real" GTO is? The GTO wasn't the fastest car in the world, or the fastest car in Detroit. In fact, it wasn't even the fastest car available from Pontiac between 1967-1974.

There were tens of thousands of 1964-1972 GTO's built that were slower than 1973-1974 GTO's.

Nobody stated that 1/4 mile times had anything to do with what a real GTO is. But the simple fact is that the 64-72 GTO's are perceived to be better performing cars than the 73/74's. Isn't that why the GTO (and all other Musclecars) became popular initially because of their performance??

[77 Canamman]

Originally Posted by David Jones

I personally never saw the 73-74 GTO as a "real" GTO. I felt the same way about the 2004-06 GTO. I'm sure they were all great cars but it seems to me that in both cases Pontiac was trying to sell cars and the GTO name was available.

The '73 was every bit a GTO as the '64.

similarities:

• Both were options on the A body platform
  
• Both had non functional hood scoops
  
• Both had at least 6.5 litre engines with min. 4 barrel carburetion and dual exhausts
  
• Both had blacked out grills with GTO identification
  
• Both were available with 3 speed manual, 4 speed manual, or auto trans
  
• Both had chrome front bumpers
  
• Both had controversial styling
  
• The '73 went a step farther with 15x7 wheels with baby moons, HD shocks/springs and 1" rear stabilizer bar

[77 Canamman]

Originally Posted by 71SportRagtop

So let me get this straight. I asked for people to make a list of the hot performance cars available from 1972 to the mid 80's other than the SD T/A's. You listed two cars for that 13-14 year period. The 73 Gran Sport Stage 1 and a high 14 second 73 GTO...and this makes me uninformed??

Here's what I googled about the 73 GS Stage 1...

http://www.musclecarclub.com/musclec...-history.shtml

This link says the car ran 15.3 seconds in the 1/4. If that's fast to you then more power to you. Funny thing is that my wife's 4 cylinder WRX, a lot of modern minivans, and pretty much any 5.0 Mustang will smoke that Stage 1 Buick and the 73 GTO that you are calling me uninformed about.

My point was that other than the 73/74 SD T/A's, the 73 and up cars of ALL makes lacked the performance and charisma of the 64-72 models. Sales figures, fan loyalty, and the overall popularity of the 64-72 models would seem to support my statements. Again, I'm struggling to understand how this makes me uninformed.

The 15.3 number is from a loaded out automatic. The informed enthusiast would know that the 4 speed Stage One optioned correctly was a beast. This stock '73 is indicative of the 4 speed performance:

http://www.hemmings.com/hmn/stories/...feature18.html

I know the WRX's run well. My friend bought a '12 brand new, and I drove it with 30 miles on the clock. He kept it a year until the paint was literally peeling off the car...

Your "fast" 5.0's, well, weren't..

Here are some factory stock tested cars, as tested from factory by Road and Track, and Hot Rod etc. the first number is o-60 the second is 1/4 mile times.

1987 Ford Mustang GT 6.4 14.4 (Automobile, April 87)
1988 Ford Mustang GT 6.4 15.0 (MT Jan '88)
1989 Ford Mustang GT 5.0l Manual 6.2 14.8 (MT Jan '89)
1990 Ford Mustang LX 5.0 6.4 14.9
1991 Ford Mustang GT 7.3 15.6
1992 Ford Mustang LX 5.0 6.2 14.8
1993 Ford Mustang Cobra 5.9 14.5
1993 Ford Mustang GT (auto) 8.0 16.1


I mentioned 5 cars in my post, not two. Again, uninformed..

Like I said, you really need a Supra.

[MikeNoun]

Originally Posted by 71SportRagtop

Nobody stated that 1/4 mile times had anything to do with what a real GTO is. But the simple fact is that the 64-72 GTO's are perceived to be better performing cars than the 73/74's. Isn't that why the GTO (and all other Musclecars) became popular initially because of their performance??

Greg, you are correct, that is what GTO's were all about. But we need to put it in perspective.

The 1973 GTO was one of the fastest cars of 1973.

The 1974 GTO was one of the fastest cars of 1974.

Isn't that GTO tradition?

[Mr_GTO]

Any GTO named a GTO by GM is a GTO despite what anyone else says. Not all GTO's were performance cars...remember the 2bbl cars.....

[Sirrotica]

Originally Posted by David Jones

The GTS was the top level HSV to start with, but they couldn't give them away. The GTO was the opener. The term "entry level" applies.

And yes, 5 seconds to 60 is fast but put that engine in a mail truck and it would be fast too.

I can assure you that Holden calling one of their Monaro's a GTO had NOTHING to do with Pontiac calling their import a GTO. Nobody here new anything about a Holden HSV GTO in 2004 (or now....) and considering how many they sold in Australia, few people down there did either.

The HSV division of Holden is the limited production, highly optioned, high performance, portion of the Holden line, how is that entry level? The term entry level is no where near that car and does not apply, even remotely. Limited production means they did not make many of them and maybe that's why there are so few of them, Ya think? Oh and BTW, they are considered collector cars down under because of the LIMITED PRODUCTION such as maybe say Shelby Mustangs.

"Entry level" is the bottom rung of the ladder in any job, car, etc. it's lowest on the totem pole. A Vega would be an entry level car. A first car, cheapest priced, few options and slow. Neither the HSV GTO nor the Pontiac GTO is a spartan, equipped, low priced car.

If no one in the US knew anything about a HSV GTO coupe, how is it that I know about it?

The people that say that it should have never been called a GTO, as yourself and John V, don't know anything about Holden or their cars and simply put the car was limited production a top of the line performance coupe both here and in Australia bearing the GTO model designation. The car fits the definition fine. What seems to be foggy to you is that it was a GTO in the Holden lineup and it continued to be a GTO when it was imported by GM, which incidentally owns Holden. Maybe I'm the only one in the US that knows that also, but I doubt it.

One other thing the detractors always say is that they never sold well here and there are many more late Mustangs around. Guess what, the car was also a Limited Production car in the US too. Holden said they could never expect to build more than 18,000 units a year before even one car for the US was made. GM also had an agreement with the US unions that they would not import more than 18,000 cars a year. Also the sticker price was North of 32,000 dollars so not many young adults had the means to buy one. Mustangs were a bunch cheaper.

The HSV GTO is equipped much the same as the imported GTO sold here, except for right hand drive, coincidence? I think not. You need to read up some more about Holden because you seem to have a distorted knowledge from what you've posted. While your at it look up entry level too.

I'll put entry level in terms you can relate to. An 18 YO kid comes in your store and wants to buy his GF a ring, He wants one with a diamond in it but only has $300, Hes going to buy an entry level diamond, not a 1 carat marquis cut, right?

John V, yep I bought one because of the name, and I actually drove one too. Believe me there are no disappointments when driving one of these cars. I have 92,000 on mine at this point and am quite pleased with the car over 8 years now and it's been every bit as good of a car as any of the other 8-10 GTOs I've owned, it's actually been a better car than the "Real" GTOs were.

[71SportRagtop]

Originally Posted by 77 Canamman

The 15.3 number is from a loaded out automatic. The informed enthusiast would know that the 4 speed Stage One optioned correctly was a beast. This stock '73 is indicative of the 4 speed performance:

http://www.hemmings.com/hmn/stories/...feature18.html

I know the WRX's run well. My friend bought a '12 brand new, and I drove it with 30 miles on the clock. He kept it a year until the paint was literally peeling off the car...

Your "fast" 5.0's, well, weren't..

Here are some factory stock tested cars, as tested from factory by Road and Track, and Hot Rod etc. the first number is o-60 the second is 1/4 mile times.

1987 Ford Mustang GT 6.4 14.4 (Automobile, April 87)
1988 Ford Mustang GT 6.4 15.0 (MT Jan '88)
1989 Ford Mustang GT 5.0l Manual 6.2 14.8 (MT Jan '89)
1990 Ford Mustang LX 5.0 6.4 14.9
1991 Ford Mustang GT 7.3 15.6
1992 Ford Mustang LX 5.0 6.2 14.8
1993 Ford Mustang Cobra 5.9 14.5
1993 Ford Mustang GT (auto) 8.0 16.1


I mentioned 5 cars in my post, not two. Again, uninformed..

Like I said, you really need a Supra.

I never said to be the most informed enthusiast. Granted I don't know a lot about the 73 Stage 1 because it's not the kind of car I'm interested in. Same goes for a car like a Porsche, I know that they can go fast but I couldn't quote top speeds or 1/4 mile times because they are not my kind of car.

OK so let's add your high 13 second Buick to the list. So we have the 73 Stage 1, the 87 GN, and the 73 and 74 SD T/A. That gives us 4 cars by my count from 1972 to the mid 80's which were fast. How many cars of all makes and models can we come up with from 64-72 that were considered fast???

You quoted 5.0 Mustang times telling me that they weren't fast but 5 of the 8 cars you listed run mid-high 14's. That's the same 1/4 mile time YOU say is respectable for a 73 455 GTO. So what is your theory? 14.8 is fast in a 73 GTO but slow in a 5.0 Mustang?? You're not making sense.

You're upset because I said that I wasn't a fan of the 73 and I dig that. Nobody wants to hear that someone doesn't like their car. But the bottom line is this: if you ask 100 members of this site what is your favorite year of GTO, maybe 5-6 are going to say the 73. You're PO'd at me for stating what seems to be a fact that the 73/74 GTO's are simply not as popular as the earlier years. I said that I believe that it's directly related to their performance. Tell me then why throughout the Musclecar world it's the faster more performance oriented cars that bring top dollar??

Why does the 454 LS-6 Chevelle bring hundreds of thousands of dollars when the 71 Chevelle SS 350 brings maybe $20-$25K??

Why does the Hemi Cuda bring insane pricing?

Why do Ram Air GTO's and Firebirds bring more money than base models??

Why in the 80's was the 5.0 Mustang SO popular?

IT'S PERFORMANCE.

[rexs73gto]

As I stated before in this post I was out running a lot of cars on the street in my new 73 GTO while I was in the Navy in VA. The 73 was no slouch when it came to performance. It ran as good as any 64-72 GTO ever did. The HP was rated on NET & not GROSS like the earlier car were so the HP rating were not that much different , but they did handle much better then the past years. I still have mine right now & it runs 11:50's all day long ,,, it's a real GTO by any sense of the word.

[71SportRagtop]

Originally Posted by MikeNoun

Greg, you are correct, that is what GTO's were all about. But we need to put it in perspective.

The 1973 GTO was one of the fastest cars of 1973.

The 1974 GTO was one of the fastest cars of 1974.

Isn't that GTO tradition?

Mike you are exactly correct. If you read my initial post I actually said that I LIKED the 74 GTO. Honestly I cannot lie, I just don't like the looks of the 73. I'm not saying it to pick an argument or hurt anyone's feelings, it's just my personal preference.

The OP started this post asking about why 74 GTO's were not as accepted as the earlier cars. Personally I feel that's it's based on the fact that the 64-72 cars have a certain aura about them. It's not just specific to GTO's either. 73-74 Chevelles aren't as popular as the 64-72 models. How about Mustangs? The 64-70 Mustangs are WAY more popular than the 71-73 models (I'm not even going to mention that 74 Mustang II turd). The same even goes for Corvettes....I'm not a big Vette guy but I'd take a 67 427 3x2bbl car over a 75 350 auto Vette any day of the week.

If I see a 74 GTO at a show or a cruise, I would definitely check it out and talk to the owner. Not once did I ever say that they weren't true GTO's. I simply stated my opinion, which is that they were not as popular because of the performance drop off.

[68lemansman]

Originally Posted by GTO4spd

Usually I get "Oh a nova" when I tell someone I have a 74 GTO. I agree that Pontiac should have continued installing 400's in the 74.

That must be the same idiots that ask me "Why did you paint your firebird camaro orange" ?

[Ben M.]

Originally Posted by 71SportRagtop

Why in the 80's was the 5.0 Mustang SO popular?

Ford made SO many of them resulting in them being SO cheap and they were SO easy to modify. Most were 4 and 6 cylinders with some real 5.0s, and a few Cobras and other 5.0s that were true contenders to be reckoned with. The idiots in the high school parking lot who put the 5.0 badges on and tried to act cool were fools then just as the idiots with the 6 cylinder Lemans with the sky high rear were trying to pretend their car was fast 10-15 years earlier. The truly fast cars were always respected (unless daddy was writing the checks ;-) ).

[Alvin]

Originally Posted by MikeNoun

Greg, you are correct, that is what GTO's were all about. But we need to put it in perspective.

The 1973 GTO was one of the fastest cars of 1973.

The 1974 GTO was one of the fastest cars of 1974.

Isn't that GTO tradition?

Actually IIRC the fastest 1973 American vehicle was the Chevy C10 454 4-spd like the one used in The Driver (1978) movie with Ryan Oneil http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0077474/

As a kid I remember Hot Rod Magazine announcement of The 454 Chevy Truck as the fastest 1973 created quite a stir in the media and gear head public.

BTT 1974 GTOs: Anyone can flame any year of any make or model...obviously.

This is a sad but true same old BS debate...flame on and disrespect. Who cares if you don't like a '74? Really? Just pass and move on.