[Pont428]

Originally Posted by J.C.you

Don, we did not do any spintron testing. We are at 30 pulls to date.The next session scheduled at the end of the month. The springs were just checked, two exhausts were down alittle, so they were replaced.

JC, your engine is a work of wonder. I bet your engine is down 20-40HP just because of those exhaust crazy bends. You get nearly 340 CFM on exhaust that doesnt help going 90 degrees outside the head before the exhaust gets bigger. I know you werent responsible for this, but if it were me, I would call Tony and build some temp tubes to fit in the collector to get rid of those tubes with right angles just outside the exhaust port. I believe it is a major limit. We always increase the size of the tube before we do a bend in step headers. It makes power. You dont have mufflers in there do you? I am betting at least 1250HP right now.

[J.C.you]

Don, PSI.

[dci]

I have a question for the ones here that say a shorter deck is needed. If our lifter bores are all in line, and we run offset rocker arms of up to .850" with only a .180" offset in the lifter. Won't the shorter decks create more stress and side load on the pushrods? I'm not saying that i do not agree with a shorter deck, but it's a little more involved than just shortening the deck. The other part of this equation is the actual need for shorter decks. Until we can spread the bore spacing out to get bigger bores. I think we have the ideal deck height right now. The only way for us to get more cubes is to go with longer strokes and we need deck height to do that.



Don Johnston
DCI MOTORSPORTS INC.
330-850-5050 shop
330-628-3354 cell
Designer of the DCI Tiger Heads and the NEW DCI Ram Air 5 Heads !!!!!

[J.C.you]

Originally Posted by dci

I have a question for the ones here that say a shorter deck is needed. If our lifter bores are all in line, and we run offset rocker arms of up to .850" with only a .180" offset in the lifter. Won't the shorter decks create more stress and side load on the pushrods? I'm not saying that i do not agree with a shorter deck, but it's a little more involved than just shortening the deck. The other part of this equation is the actual need for shorter decks. Until we can spread the bore spacing out to get bigger bores. I think we have the ideal deck height right now. The only way for us to get more cubes is to go with longer strokes and we need deck height to do that.



Don Johnston
DCI MOTORSPORTS INC.
330-850-5050 shop
330-628-3354 cell
Designer of the DCI Tiger Heads and the NEW DCI Ram Air 5 Heads !!!!!

good point if you leave the cam tunnel alone. But a short deck with some judicious mods to the tunnel, bores, and cam would make things better.

[BruceWilkie]

Originally Posted by dci

I have a question for the ones here that say a shorter deck is needed. If our lifter bores are all in line, and we run offset rocker arms of up to .850" with only a .180" offset in the lifter. Won't the shorter decks create more stress and side load on the pushrods? I'm not saying that i do not agree with a shorter deck, but it's a little more involved than just shortening the deck. The other part of this equation is the actual need for shorter decks. Until we can spread the bore spacing out to get bigger bores. I think we have the ideal deck height right now. The only way for us to get more cubes is to go with longer strokes and we need deck height to do that.



Don Johnston
DCI MOTORSPORTS INC.
330-850-5050 shop
330-628-3354 cell
Designer of the DCI Tiger Heads and the NEW DCI Ram Air 5 Heads !!!!!

Yes and no...for big cubes a longer wider deck opens things up quite a bit and allows us to have same (or greater) bore advantage. Beside head flow, bore size(spacing) is pretty much a large factor in why Pontiacs arent making NHRA pro-stock power at 500 ci now. Bore size dictates valve size ultimately dictating HP! In the VE picture stroke wont get you there.

However the short deck at current bore space(even with std lifter bore placement) offers us some different opportunities... 400-454 ci LS and SBC, SBF, SBM, combos are rather popular with combos from mild to wild... and some stout 327- 370 inch packages are out there as well...

I strongly feel we should focus on the 400-460 inch segment until we have the stretched blocks(heads too) to go toe to toe with the bad boys 500 ci up. We are doing good there to a point, but the bore advantage they have does show up in the upper levels though. So... its about time we go LS hunting instead!

We have bore space advantage in the 400-460 inch range if we use our 301 deck height(or close), the 10.2 deck doesnt allow the lighter recip etc... that a shorter deck allows.
Shorter deck also eases packaging in tight places like 82-up small light cars... the 301 deck height still allows over 460 ci combos but then it competing against bigger bore motors. The 301 deck would allow us to do ok in the 300-400 ci range but an even shorter deck might do better...

As far as offset lifter cups and rockers... its not the best way to go about it. Crower prefers no offset and up to .150 on the lifter cup can work ok but beyond that the side loading on roller axles becomes a new issue to deal with. Big angle offsets in the pushrod affects side loading of rocker pivots.
If you are trying for high rpm, using offset lifter cups and rockers, makes the task harder. Dealing with one arc of travel is far easier to control than a compounded arc. (Think valvetrain control and spring life/roller axle and rocker maintenance).

A change in the lifter bank would be better... revise all our block castings to allow simplified changes that can easier accomodate standard lifter placement with the option to deliver block with no lifter bores drilled for placement wherever, however, whatever, any particular head design needs them to be.

The lifter bank just needs to be a continuous rectangle the length of the valley... revising the cam tunnel while your at it to allow bigger journals and options in height would be a good thing as well. Such a revision allows for an easier way to control the valvetrain allowing more time and resources channled to making power. One other block revision could have options on main bearing bore size but 3" will work ok for many apps.

RPM is a very important element in making power... High rpm was never a Pontiac's strongest attribute, as Pontiac had neither the heads or the block to support it... We have plenty of killer head choices for the "smaller" ci combos we could build with a short deck. The block revisions I'm suggesting opens the door to new head designs.

IMO the short deck sells better than a longer stretched block does, as it allows quite a few existing components... Other than intake manifold, any other obstacles like existing headers or lack of stock replacement valley covers are very minor.

Until there is consencus on a stretched block and how much it gets stretched... 301TTF makes more sense.

[dci]

I would agree with that if we are class racing and had a cubic inch limit, but for the average Pontiac bracket racer. I think we have a very good platform to build on. Heck even the LS guy's are pushing for taller deck heights. I think they have a taller than stock deck now at 9.700 and heard roomer of a 10.100" deck block coming out soon. I don't want you to think that I'm arguing or disagreeing. I am just trying to understand the logic for what the majority of our group would need or use it for. I think if someone is trying to build a smaller cu in engine to achieve close to 3 HP per. Then maybe a new designed from scratch short deck block would be in order. I think personally that a block with improved lifter bore area, and a raised big bore cam tunnel would be more useful. Maybe I am the minority though !!!!


Don Johnston
DCI MOTORSPORTS INC.
330-850-5050 shop
330-628-3354 cell
Designer of the DCI Tiger Heads and the NEW DCI Ram Air 5 Heads !!!!!

[Tiger Paw]

Bruce, your right about what is needed to go hp/ci racing. The problem is there aren't enough people willing to start with all new pieces and cost of doing that. All new castings and pretty much everything else would need to change (relatively).

The biggest issue the Medium block Pontiac has is available space for valvetrain, valve size and cam/lifter/pushrod geometry. Removing the lifter bores entirely and designing an assembly similar to the Ilmor Indy car pushrod engine. Getting a killer valvetrain would close the gap considerably. No new castings, not have to buy a bunch of anncillaries just a fresh approach and a fair amount of design and a few new small parts.

My racing years are over, but maybe someone else with dreams and plenty of time.

[Tiger Paw]

When I say there aren't enough people interested in hp/ci racing, I am referring in general, even Comp Eliminator which is exactly that can't come up with a full field and IHRA Modified folded years ago. Much of that has to do with cost of racing. When it is all about Horsepower (purchased) and less about individual skill, the deepest pockets win. THAT SUCKS, a guys wins cause he's rich. Comp style racing won't last long.

[Chad Speier]

Comp Eliminator is more than deep pockets. It's about ingenuity, about pushing the limits, and lastly about technology.

If Comp dies, the trickle down effect will cause the average bracket racer to die as well.

[GTO Dan]

Originally Posted by Chad Speier

Comp Eliminator is more than deep pockets. It's about ingenuity, about pushing the limits, and lastly about technology.

If Comp dies, the trickle down effect will cause the average bracket racer to die as well.

I agree. I think a lot of racers have moved to outlaw racing, especially the 1/8 mile stuff. There is a significant shift in our sport. I think it is for the better but we will see.

[Tiger Paw]

Chad, how many Comp guys buy engines? How many build their own? Ingenuity absolutely required. Not likely that Nickens, Jenkins RIP, Sonny L and WJ (I'm told did engines for this years Champ) will break new ground in search of Pontiac power.

DCI, McCarty, Butler or somebody with engineering working with will have to do it.

When I quit Comp Sonny L Chevy hemis ran me out of A/AA $75K per engine. Now WJ?

[Chad Speier]

Originally Posted by Tiger Paw

Chad, how many Comp guys buy engines? How many build their own? Ingenuity absolutely required. Not likely that Nickens, Jenkins RIP, Sonny L and WJ (I'm told did engines for this years Champ) will break new ground in search of Pontiac power.

DCI, McCarty, Butler or somebody with engineering working with will have to do it.

When I quit Comp Sonny L Chevy hemis ran me out of A/AA $75K per engine. Now WJ?

I'd say 50/50 buy vs build. But to be clear, no one would ever build a Pontiac to run Comp. Makes no sense when you can buy anything GM that is already R&D to death and run in a Pontiac.

You will have a hard time buying a SBC top builder engine for $75K. However, a little guy can win races and set records as well. In fact The Champ has Neil and Parks build his chassis and they run A/ND. I do their heads. The Champs rear end bill was over $100K last year..

[Tiger Paw]

Comp guys who build their own are my heroes! A lot of people have no clue as to how much effort and money goes into racing in Comp.

Some of the ingenuity can help here. Fuel some thoughts to include a higher level of Pontiac. And if somebody wants to run with it great. I think a 400ish ci Pont could go pretty fast.

[KO]

the biggest problem with Comp is a guy can obliterate the index and just move to a different class w different car engine or both

[Chad Speier]

A bigger issue is most fans don't understand the class.

Comp is a way of life!

In 2006 my father and I spent $125K on a new G/EA '32 Bantam, trickest car on Earth. Weighed 1200lbs with me in it. Built a SB2.2 4 cylinder and had spare parts from hell. It was the year Aragona won the Championship and Coan was chasing it as well. Both guys were running G/EA. The index was lowered .24 in 3 months. Try selling off that stuff! LOL..

[KO]

take that motor put it in a dragster, kill that index, or add dry sump and another carb and a 5 speed, just takes money,

[Chad Speier]

Originally Posted by KO

take that motor put it in a dragster, kill that index, or add dry sump and another carb and a 5 speed, just takes money,

Index should be taken for a win or a Championship.

[BruceWilkie]

Originally Posted by GTO Dan

I agree. I think a lot of racers have moved to outlaw racing, especially the 1/8 mile stuff. There is a significant shift in our sport. I think it is for the better but we will see.

Alot of the outlaw stuff is big motors we cant touch without big changes...

But there does seem to be a ton of LS SBC and Ford stuff out there, racing hard n fast and mostly under 460 ci...

We could do very well there and should look at it more closely... Maybe not as glamorous as a 600+ ci Sonny motors, but with all the LS mania goin on out there it would be nice to go out and spank a few of those at same ci and weight.

Seeing we can already pick up the phone and order a short deck... we got a good start at the 460 or less range...

the lifter bank n cam tunnel revisions I spoke of earlier would not be that hard to revise and should even be incorporated in our larger blocks.

Current blocks limit how far you can move lifters around... change the lifter banks so lifters can be located most anywhere and that opens up changes that could be made to heads... yet the blocks could still be drilled for standard lifter location for the little guys who dont need relocated stuff... Current blocks you are not as free to change lifter arrangement without furnace time with a good welder. That kind of work aint cheap.

[65nss4spdGTO]

Originally Posted by Chad Speier

A bigger issue is most fans don't understand the class.

Comp is a way of life!

In 2006 my father and I spent $125K on a new G/EA '32 Bantam, trickest car on Earth. Weighed 1200lbs with me in it. Built a SB2.2 4 cylinder and had spare parts from hell. It was the year Aragona won the Championship and Coan was chasing it as well. Both guys were running G/EA. The index was lowered .24 in 3 months. Try selling off that stuff! LOL..

Comp was the stepping stone to Pro-Stock.

The fastest of the fast with so many different combinations.

It proves why a conventional Pontiac will never compete in a HP/CI class against other brands.

Calvin Hill
Hill Performance
708-250-7420

[dci]

The only thing I see keeping a Pontiac out of comp is someone willing to spend the money to do what it takes. If you walk through the pits and staging and look at some of wild set ups these guy's have. You will be blown away by their creativity. Some of the cylinder heads I seen on these cars look like someones science experiment gone bad. They have globs of weld,putty,and screws holding everything together LOL. I asked one guy how he keeps water in the engine and his response was. We don't run coolant anymore. We push it to the burn out box make a pass shut it off and tow it back. Comp people are in their own little world and the only thing that limits them is their imagination. Of course it helps having the funds to make it all happen. Now on the other side of the coin. Pontiac people are in their own little world. We try and keep everything stock appearing and low maintenance and rarely step outside our comfort zone. I am not saying that is bad. I am just saying I believe we limit ourselves by trying to be unique in our way. I have to say that it is cool to see a Pontiac with 6X heads run with a Chevy that has been modded out. I just want to see Pontiac's step up their game a little, and we are a little bit at a time. Our cylinder head selections now are very good and versatile. So the only thing we need now are Pontiac people willing to do what it takes to compete with brand X. There are a few that have stepped up to the plate, but we need allot more.


Don Johnston
DCI MOTORSPORTS INC.
330-850-5050 shop
330-628-3354 cell
Designer of the DCI Tiger Heads and the NEW DCI Ram Air 5 Heads !!!!!