[stephen p]

hey guys, i have a 1968 firebird, with a 69 yh code 428, i currently have a doug nash 5 speed transmission (non overdrive) 3.08 gear out back. i'm not sure that i'm happy with the nash, and am thinking about going to a tremec tko500. the gm tko's will bolt up to a stock bell no problem. but i'm on a budget, and the gm versions seldom come up used, or cheap. the ford versions pop up all the time, and usually cheap. so here are my thoughts, and i'd like some feedback.

as you pontiac guru's probalby know, the 1965+ BOP bellhousings had dual patterns, one for gm, and the other for ford toploader, because from 65-69 sometimes bop used a ford toploader 3 speed. well, the ford tko's use the toploader bell pattern. so i'm thinking i can get my bellhousing bored to accept the larger ford input shaft bearing retainer, and the transmission will bolt right up to my bellhousing. now, both the gm, and ford versions use a 26 spline input, but the ford's is 1/2 inch longer, and the pilot shaft is a different diameter so i'm thinking i can just buy the gm input from tremec, OR, have my machinist shorten the ford input, and mill me a pilot bushing.

is this sound logic, or have i lost my mind?

the ford mustang tko's will pop up for $6-900 around where i live fairly often, i already know of one i can pick up for $800, and drive the car before it's pulled. again, the gm pattern ones very seldom come around, and when they do, they aren't nearly as cheap.

[tom s]

Anything is possible,just numbers in a check book.I think I bought a GM version from someone for $1200 because they were going to a 600.You just have to check how much everything is going to cost to change it over.Tom

[Mr. P-Body]

The Ford three-speed is refered to as the "Dearborn" transmission in Pontiacs.

The "Nash", if truly a Nash, is a crash-box with no synchronizers ("slick shifted", not really well suited to street). If it has synchros, it's the Richmond. Tough stuff. If it has synchros, and is shifting roughly, either the clutch or shifter are responsible unless it's worn out.

The World Class T-5 (Mustang) is okay for the smaller engines, but the 428 will eat one up in a hurry if you pound on it. Not designed for 450-plus lb. ft. IMO.

Jim

[tom s]

Mr P,he asked about a Ford Tremic TKO?Tom

[Baron Von Zeppelin]

Originally Posted by stephen p

... i currently have a doug nash 5 speed transmission (non overdrive) 3.08 gear out back. i'm not sure that i'm happy with the nash..

No technical advice on the questions.
Just curious if you have driven with the Nash tranny yet ?

If so - what was the issue(s) ?

[stephen p]

Originally Posted by Mr. P-Body

The Ford three-speed is refered to as the "Dearborn" transmission in Pontiacs.

The "Nash", if truly a Nash, is a crash-box with no synchronizers ("slick shifted", not really well suited to street). If it has synchros, it's the Richmond. Tough stuff. If it has synchros, and is shifting roughly, either the clutch or shifter are responsible unless it's worn out.

The World Class T-5 (Mustang) is okay for the smaller engines, but the 428 will eat one up in a hurry if you pound on it. Not designed for 450-plus lb. ft. IMO.

Jim

no, it says doug nash all over it. doug nash started out offering just a crash box trans, and later offered a "street" version. with syncros. mine is the street. i just had it rebuilt, it's for sure not a richomnd. says doug nash on it, and we found out the hard way, there's alot of people who think a street doug nash uses all the same richmond parts. they don't. alot of it had to be sourced by part numbers on the actual bearings, rather than off a richomond microfiche


i would not put a t5 in anything. they're junk for anything other than cruising in a 2bbl 289 mustang, driven by an 80 year old man.. a stock 225 hp mustang will grenade one.

i'm talking about the tremec 3550, (later called the tko 500, the lesser tko600) and because t5's are such junk, that's why there are so many more ford tko's floating around, because anyone with a fox body mustang who wants to go fast has to use a tko, or a c4.



as to the question about what the issues are, the nash makes more racket, just about than my M22 i had in the car. because of the angle of the cut on the gears. that, and i was toying around with having a proper overdrive. the trans shifts great. it has about 200 miles on it now

[David Jones]

That 3.08 might have to go.

[GTOLou]

Not sure if any help - but Lindsey at Lindsey's ring and pinion in upstate SC had a ford Richmond street 5speed deal that he had set up for GM - camaro/TA application. He new I was looking for one. I can't remember what he had to do to make it fit.

He and Brian at S-K speed both recommended passing on those older Nash street 5speeds. Brian said "if you can get one for less than 500$" it might be worth the chance..lol. Apparently he is selling tons of old tranny parts and he had none the older Nash tranny's.

[tom s]

Call Hurst driveline,they sell Tremics,they might be able to help you on the conversion of the trans.You might just need a GM input and a GM bearing retainer.Tom

[stephen p]

Originally Posted by David Jones

That 3.08 might have to go.

the 3.08 is great. it allows me to be able to cruise on the interstate at 70. and the nash being a non overdrive, has really tight gears and first gear being really low. the car is geared like an overdrive with a 3.73, it's just in the trans itself

Originally Posted by GTOLou

Not sure if any help - but Lindsey at Lindsey's ring and pinion in upstate SC had a ford Richmond street 5speed deal that he had set up for GM - camaro/TA application. He new I was looking for one. I can't remember what he had to do to make it fit.

He and Brian at S-K speed both recommended passing on those older Nash street 5speeds. Brian said "if you can get one for less than 500$" it might be worth the chance..lol. Apparently he is selling tons of old tranny parts and he had none the older Nash tranny's.

well, i just had mine completely rebuilt. my trans guy is pretty sharp. he was able to piece together all of the things he needed. bearings, syncros, soft parts kit.

[David Jones]

Originally Posted by David Jones

That 3.08 might have to go.

The TKO has an OD. With a 3.08 you'll use OD at about 70.

[scld1354]

If you're looking at Ford Tremecs, make sure you're looking at the TKO500 (or TKO600) and NOT the 3550. Externally, the look very similar. The 3550 will have a 10 spline input and 28 spline output. The TKO's have the 26 input and 31 output.

Im finding conflicting info, but it looks like the 3550 was upgraded at some point to the TKOs input/output shafts. Either way, it's east to tell the difference...

[stephen p]

Originally Posted by David Jones

The TKO has an OD. With a 3.08 you'll use OD at about 70.

oh, sorry i misunderstood. yes, if i got to an OD transmission, i'll probably go with a 3.42 gear out back.

Originally Posted by scld1354

If you're looking at Ford Tremecs, make sure you're looking at the TKO500 (or TKO600) and NOT the 3550. Externally, the look very similar. The 3550 will have a 10 spline input and 28 spline output. The TKO's have the 26 input and 31 output.

Im finding conflicting info, but it looks like the 3550 was upgraded at some point to the TKOs input/output shafts. Either way, it's east to tell the difference...

oh, ok cool. i thought a tko500 was just a renamed 3550. i knew the 500, and 600's had 26 spline inputs.

[70 bird]

I had a go with a 3550 in my ford, after many hours of pulling and fixing it several times my ford now has a th400. Don't get me wrong I like rowing gears but I wouldn't put a tremec behind a Pontiac if you plan on beating on the vehicle!

[David Jones]

Stock 428?

[Tom Vaught]

Originally Posted by Mr. P-Body

The Ford three-speed is refered to as the "Dearborn" transmission in Pontiacs. The "Nash", if truly a Nash, is a crash-box with no synchronizers ("slick shifted", not really well suited to street). If it has synchros, it's the Richmond. Tough stuff. If it has synchros, and is shifting roughly, either the clutch or shifter are responsible unless it's worn out.

The World Class T-5 (Mustang) is okay for the smaller engines, but the 428 will eat one up in a hurry if you pound on it. Not designed for 450-plus lb. ft. IMO. Jim

Originally Posted by stephen p

no, it says doug nash all over it. doug nash started out offering just a crash box trans, and later offered a "street" version. with syncros. mine is the street. i just had it rebuilt, it's for sure not a richomnd. says doug nash on it, and we found out the hard way, there's alot of people who think a street doug nash uses all the same richmond parts. they don't. alot of it had to be sourced by part numbers on the actual bearings, rather than off a richomond microfiche

as to the question about what the issues are, the nash makes more racket, just about than my M22 i had in the car. because of the angle of the cut on the gears. that, and i was toying around with having a proper overdrive. the trans shifts great. it has about 200 miles on it now

I agree with you Stephen. The Doug Nash Transmission IS NOT the same as the Richmond Transmission. Lots of mis-information out there on the Doug Nash Transmission.

The "Doug Nash Transmission" originally was not even a "Doug Nash" creation.
The transmission was designed by three Ford Engineers (Bob McNall being one of them).
I worked with Bob for a few years and he said that they designed the trans to go behind Buddy Ingersoll's Turbo Pinto.

http://pintopage.fordpinto.com/buddy.htm
One Quote:
"A full 28 inches of Goodyear rubber is planted by torque funneled through a 20-pound Hays flywheel to a Doug Nash 5-speed. Torque multiplication in the trans is further amplified in the nine-inch Ford rearend by a 6.50:1 Schiefer gearset. These driveline pieces form a VIRTUALLY UNBREAKABLE driveline. Ring gear life with the light car is good, leaving plenty of time to concentrate on components that require more attention."
(THE PINTO COULD RUN 132 MPH IN THE QUARTER WITH 124 CUBIC INCHES OF DISPLACEMENT.)

So Bob McNall said the original transmission was well designed and a lot stronger vs a Ford Top Loader or a Muncie trans offered at the time. But they could not make any money on their new design. So they sold it to a Ford Skilled Trades Plumber who was running a aluminum bodied Ford Bronco at the time on the strip: DOUG NASH.

So Doug Nash eventually left Ford, moved down south, and started the Doug Nash Transmission company. One of his transmissions was installed in the Gale Banks Big Block Chevy Twin Turbo Trans Ams (1450 lbs ft of torque) and set some records at Bonneville with Don Stringfellow driving the car.

Don Stringfellow (a Bonneville veteran, set a production based land speed record in 88 with a Trans Am at 268 mph.) Read more: http://forums.hotrod.com/70/1391265/...#ixzz306GPZ3N6

So at one time Doug Nash was living high on the hog with racers and his company created several transmissions including the street 5 speed trans. I personally own (one of two) of his "Equal Energy Split" 5 speed transmissions. He built two of them and one went into the first Lightning Truck "mule vehicle" that was built with a 514 cid Ford experimental EFI engine. (Funny it had a lot more torque than 450 lbs/ft of torque).

The Doug Nash Engineering Company was sold to the DNE employees and they ran it into the ground (bankrupt) much like the owners of Holley Carburetor did a couple of times over the years. The DNE "Corvette Transmission" was the one that killed DNE.
The GM management people basically screwed up a good design.

But back to your question about the modifications to the Ford TKO trans to make it work with a GM bellhousing. You have a good plan and with the right trans person should be able to swap the parts to make the deal work if the basic input shaft gearing and dimensions are the same as the GM parts. I would assume that they will be really close, but you never know when you are dealing with a Ford deal. Ford Guys like to make "Improvements" and sometimes the parts do not fit previous applications.
At one time we built THREE 4.6L engines (in the same model year vehicles) and the parts were not the same between the engines.

So 1) Richmond Transmissions are not DNE Transmissions.
2) You would need to do an investigation of a parts list and inspection of the input shafts to see if they interchange
3) You would have to make the mods and see how the deal worked out. A bunch of extra work to see if the concept is valid but at the end of the day you might save a bunch of money and get a fine transmission for your GM vehicle using a Ford Trans.

Tom Vaught

[stephen p]

Originally Posted by David Jones

Stock 428?

mostly. stock heads, stock short block, fresh rebuild. only real modifications are an rpm intake, holley 750dp, and headers.

Originally Posted by Tom Vaught

I agree with you Stephen. The Doug Nash Transmission IS NOT the same as the Richmond Transmission. Lots of mis-information out there on the Doug Nash Transmission.

The "Doug Nash Transmission" originally was not even a "Doug Nash" creation.
The transmission was designed by three Ford Engineers (Bob McNall being one of them).
I worked with Bob for a few years and he said that they designed the trans to go behind Buddy Ingersoll's Turbo Pinto.

http://pintopage.fordpinto.com/buddy.htm
One Quote:
"A full 28 inches of Goodyear rubber is planted by torque funneled through a 20-pound Hays flywheel to a Doug Nash 5-speed. Torque multiplication in the trans is further amplified in the nine-inch Ford rearend by a 6.50:1 Schiefer gearset. These driveline pieces form a VIRTUALLY UNBREAKABLE driveline. Ring gear life with the light car is good, leaving plenty of time to concentrate on components that require more attention."
(THE PINTO COULD RUN 132 MPH IN THE QUARTER WITH 124 CUBIC INCHES OF DISPLACEMENT.)

So Bob McNall said the original transmission was well designed and a lot stronger vs a Ford Top Loader or a Muncie trans offered at the time. But they could not make any money on their new design. So they sold it to a Ford Skilled Trades Plumber who was running a aluminum bodied Ford Bronco at the time on the strip: DOUG NASH.

So Doug Nash eventually left Ford, moved down south, and started the Doug Nash Transmission company. One of his transmissions was installed in the Gale Banks Big Block Chevy Twin Turbo Trans Ams (1450 lbs ft of torque) and set some records at Bonneville with Don Stringfellow driving the car.

Don Stringfellow (a Bonneville veteran, set a production based land speed record in 88 with a Trans Am at 268 mph.) Read more: http://forums.hotrod.com/70/1391265/...#ixzz306GPZ3N6

So at one time Doug Nash was living high on the hog with racers and his company created several transmissions including the street 5 speed trans. I personally own (one of two) of his "Equal Energy Split" 5 speed transmissions. He built two of them and one went into the first Lightning Truck "mule vehicle" that was built with a 514 cid Ford experimental EFI engine. (Funny it had a lot more torque than 450 lbs/ft of torque).

The Doug Nash Engineering Company was sold to the DNE employees and they ran it into the ground (bankrupt) much like the owners of Holley Carburetor did a couple of times over the years. The DNE "Corvette Transmission" was the one that killed DNE.
The GM management people basically screwed up a good design.

But back to your question about the modifications to the Ford TKO trans to make it work with a GM bellhousing. You have a good plan and with the right trans person should be able to swap the parts to make the deal work if the basic input shaft gearing and dimensions are the same as the GM parts. I would assume that they will be really close, but you never know when you are dealing with a Ford deal. Ford Guys like to make "Improvements" and sometimes the parts do not fit previous applications.
At one time we built THREE 4.6L engines (in the same model year vehicles) and the parts were not the same between the engines.

So 1) Richmond Transmissions are not DNE Transmissions.
2) You would need to do an investigation of a parts list and inspection of the input shafts to see if they interchange
3) You would have to make the mods and see how the deal worked out. A bunch of extra work to see if the concept is valid but at the end of the day you might save a bunch of money and get a fine transmission for your GM vehicle using a Ford Trans.

Tom Vaught

thanks. that's a really informative post. also when i say "ford tko" i'm referring to the aftermarket tremec transmission. never came factory in anything. just intended to replace junk t5's. so hopefully there's not too much "ford engineering" in it.

[GTOLou]

Tom..your "history" lessons are always great reads and well-received. Thanks for posting that.

[HPTODD]

I bought a 3550 for cheap and thought I would use at least for mock-up and possibly adapt it to work behind the Pontiac(Input shaft,pilot etc)in my 63GP.I bought the BOP Quicktime Bell (PN#8070)used from a guy that had a TKO500 behind his Pontiac and is now converting to a T56.The bell wont fit over the bearing retainer.Before I purchased this trans I researched it on Tremecs website and downloaded a spec sheet that showed all physical dimensions for a TKO500 and a TR3550 to be the same except for input and outputs splines.The dimension for the bearing retainer on my 3550 is 123.19MM(4.843IN) just as the Tremec sheet says yet the Quicktime that is designed for the TKO doesnt work? I haven't yet contacted Lakewood who bought Quicktime.Did some TKO's have smaller bearing retainers?If someone is using this set-up I would be curious your retainer OD.Or if someone has thier TKO out please take the time to measure and respond.Thanks,Todd

[tom s]

There were GM 3550s!They fit a Pontiac bell.I have owned 2 of them.Have one in my 69 bird right now.Tom