[jstoelk625]

Finally getting my engine ready to go and have numerous questions. The foundation is a 69 428 XF block with original crank shaft. This is going to go into a 69 FB convertible. I have the original rods, pistons (burnt with bad rings), valley pan, windage tray, dented oil pan, a stock intake manifold (excellent condition), a couple of pulleys. The block has been mag tested and has previously been bored 30 over. One cylinder appears to be slightly pitted from water sitting in it, the others are fine. The crank is fine. Will be decked 1st of next week. I'm thinking of having the one cylinder sleeved or going to 40 over, if that is what is needed. I'm going to put a 5 spd behind it with a posi (unknown gears at this point but welcome some input). There will be PS, PDB, AC in the car.
I've read and re-read one thread after another and talked with several people and now I'm fairly confused and but do have an idea of what I want and would like some reasonable suggestions as to how best to proceed. I'm looking for suggestions on what to put inside to achieve a really nice engine that produces something in 450-500 hp range (which shouldn't be difficult). (It will not be raced.)
I'm contemplating a roller cam but unsure as to which. Or is hydraulic a better choice for my application? For pistons I'm leaning to Ross, rods 5140. I'm leaning towards 6X8 heads with a 3 angle grind. Probably 2 1/2 HO manifolds or headers and probably pypes running back. I'm undecided on Q-jet or HEI, and conventional or serpentine belt system (I lean toward HEI/serpentine but am not cast in concrete - no offense to Q-jet).
So I'm here to find out which component (Comp, Crower, Ultra-Dyne, Ross, Keith Black, etc.) and why for my application. Also, please fill in my gaps and anything else that I may have overlooked to get this done. I plan on getting new a valley pan, windage tray, and oil pan but again would like some input or are they all similar. What is the correct number timing cover? Single or double snorkel air cleaner (correct # if you've got it), or open? (I don't know if it's worth the money to go with a Ram Air configuration.) It's been suggested that I go to either an Edelbrock RPM or Performer manifold...? I'm going to have a TA metal hood, will clearance be better with one or another of the above air cleaners?
I really appreciate your input as this is finally coming together (4 years). I'm hoping to be driving this spring (actually my wife is looking forward to "her" getting to drive it!). Floors are going in as I write and paint will be put down soon. Nice to finally having it come together rather than a bunch of pieces. Thanks again folks...

[ponyakr]

The answer to your questions will get many opinions. So I'll give mine too.

Since you are considering 428 Ross pistons, which are probably near $800 shipped, I would opt to go with a basic 4.25 stroker assembly instead.

http://www.jbp-pontiac.com/products/...s.html#461_467

It's easier to get the hp you want at a lower rpm, with a flat tappet hyd cam.

Then I'd go with a GOOD Q-jet CARB, and a GOOD HEI DISTRIBUTOR. Some say you need to dent the firewall in slightly to clear the stock HEI cap. Some say it'll clear, barely. There are dist with smaller caps. I think there will be plenty of room under the hood for the RPM intake. I'd use an open element 14" x 3" air cleaner. Summit sells lots of 'em with different drop base models to adjust for hood clearance. Any 69-up 11-bolt timing cover will work. New repros are available for about $150.

http://www.everyday-performance.com/...arburetors.htm

http://www.smicarburetor.com/product...D2/9/sfID3/100

http://www.cliffshighperformance.com/

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/du...w/make/pontiac

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Edelbrock-71...5ef334&vxp=mtr

http://www.summitracing.com/search/d...rder=Ascending

http://www.ebay.com/bhp/pontiac-timing-cover

If your budget is not limited, I'd go with a hyd roller cam and either Edlebock or KRE alum D-port heads. 500hp is easy with these parts.

http://www.sdperformance.com/viewPro...productID=1815

http://www.race-mart.com/product.asp...4qkaAv_A8P8HAQ

http://www.krepower.com/Pontiac%20Al...er%20Heads.htm

Now if you decide to go with the 6x heads and a flat tappet cam, the cam selection will depend on your final compression ratio(CR). This CR can be determined on a CR calculator. Here's a good one.

http://www.wallaceracing.com/cr_test2.php

You just plug in your specs and it will figure your CR. The CR can be increased by shaving some off the heads and / or using thinner Cometic head gaskets. Or you can use stock 6x-8 heads and one of the steep ramp cams to increase cylinder pressure with the lower CR. Flat tappet cam choice can be a real bag of snakes, with many differing opinions. I'd stay on the conservative side and go with a Lunati Voodoo 268.

http://www.race-mart.com/product.asp...Hq8aAhki8P8HAQ

If you can get the CR up to near 9.5, I'd go with the old school RA4 grind cam and Rhoads lifters. The Crower part number is 60919. But the Melling SPC-8 is cheaper from some Ebay stores. Summit has the best price on the Rhoads lifters.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Engine-Camsh...ac259f&vxp=mtr

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/rh...w/make/pontiac

Hey, that oughta be enuff to give you some food for thought.

[ponyakr]

Here's something else to consider. Since your car will not be raced, there is absolutely no reason to try to build for 500hp. 400 or a little over with near 500ft lbs of torque is plenty to melt the hard street tires.

So, there is no need to choose a big cam that will make 500hp and rev to 6000rpm.

Most of your driving will be done from an idle to 5000 rpm or less. So, I'd choose a smaller cam that will make low end torque, idle smooth and make plenty of vac for the power brakes. A big lopey cam sounds good, but wastes gas, has less low end torque, and sometimes don't want to idle smooth much under 1000rpm.

Jim Hand did extensive cam tests with his 455 street/strip wagon. It's a good read.

http://community.fortunecity.ws/silv...build/cams.htm

[dmac]

To add to above comment, the stock intake will be fine at the 400-450 HP range, as will factory heads, and ram air style exhaust manifolds. No worries about what will fit under the hood either, headers are a real pain to install, get the Qjet built, and it will look stock and still have more than enough power. Instead of buying aluminum heads, headers, manifold, and other after market parts, build a solid bottom end, a stroker kit will be a better way to increase power if you think you need more, my opinion, as long as you intend to keep rpms low. I personally don't think you even need the stroker kit, especially if your crank is in good shape, and you keep the rpms at a factory type level.

In my son's 69 firebird, the HEI cap fits, but it is close.

[ponyakr]

dmac's post brought up a few more ideas. The Q-jet and cast intake will make it look more like stock alright. So, I reckin you need to decide just how "stock" you want it to look.

Keep in mind that the big 6x on the heads won't look stock. An open element air cleaner won't look stock. The long branch exhaust manifolds won't look stock to most people. And, the coated ones cost about $700 shipped.

http://www.ramairrestoration.com/lb-...y-headers.html

I'd have to go with 35270 Hedman headers for about $250. But that's just me.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Hedman-35270...e5d6fe&vxp=mtr

You can buy 'em coated. But the coating cost more than the headers. The best price I can find for 'em is about $550 shipped.

http://www.race-mart.com/product.asp...L4oaAje68P8HAQ

Hooker 1 5/8" tube coated are $485 at Summit.

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/ho...BZIaAtXl8P8HAQ

Since a RA4 engine came in a '69 Bird, you could use one of the RA4 / 455HO type alum intake manifolds and still look "stock", and it would be lighter than the cast iron. But these aren't cheap either.

https://www.opgi.com/gto/G240346/

You could use what, either 16 or 62 heads and the numbers would look more "stock" than the 6x. But, if you run those heads you'll need dish pistons, to reduce the CR. I think Race Tec makes the cheapest custom pistons.

http://www.racetecpistons.com/pages/racetec.php

The biggest dish I can find in a 428 piston is 14cc.

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/dms-6113x-150

That's gonna give a lot of CR with 72cc heads. Let's run it thru the CR calculator.

http://www.wallaceracing.com/cr_test2.php

428 + .030 bore, 4.0" stroke, 72cc heads, 14cc dish, .039 x 4.3 head gaskets, zero deck height Calculator says: 10.31 CR

That's too much to be safe for pump gas. You can get the CR below 10:1 with thicker Cometic gaskets, leaving the pistons .005 or .010 in the hole, and enlarging the chambers to maybe 75cc. But that costs $ and if you keep decent quench you still won't get down to 9.5 CR which many consider max for pump gas. Custom pistons are the cheapest way to do it.

So, lets use the calculator to find the size dish we need.

Change the dish to 24cc and the calculator says 9.42 CR. That'll work. But you'd need to check the finished head cc BEFORE ordering pistons. I've read that some of these heads actually measured about 75cc. And they may have already been milled some. And the valve job could change the cc slightly. So an accurate measurement is the only way to know for sure.

There's several ways to do it.

[gtofreek]

I built a basically stock 428 with the VooDoo cam recommended earlier. 227/233 @ .050". That car is a beast on the street. Here is a video of it in action. First slowly rolling into the throttle, and hitting second. Then a shift to 2'nd gear burnout. This does have a Torker II intake and a custom built Holley 950 HP.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z9ly..._705Me-aAiPbcg

I used this Icon piston, which is much less expensive than the Ross, and just as nice or nicer than the Ross in my opinion. Kauffman Racing has great prices on them.

https://www.uempistons.com/index.php...b528782fbd9dd4

The RamAir restorations manifolds are great. They even have 2 1/2" ones that are even better than the factory RA manifolds. The GTO 428 in the video above has factory RA manifolds.

Cam has a nice idle. No need to go stroker with what you want. If you use the 6X-8 heads, you better have them milled down to get you in the 9:1-9.25:1 Compression. As they sit, you would about 8.5:1 or less with these Icon pistons, which have a 10cc dish. Otherwise, you will need some kind of flattop piston with those heads.

Did you not have the heads that came off that engine?

The 6X is a good head, but I would definitely have the exhaust opened up to 1.77" valve. It will flow way better by doing that. No need top open port up, just cut for bigger valve to fix factory valve job, which is terrible. Intake port is good. Responds well to porting also if you go that route.

Q-jet and factory intake will work good for it. Better than most aftermarket stuff, unless you really know how to dial them in.

[ponyakr]

OK, here's some decent lookin Probe 428 flat top pistons, with 5.5cc reliefs.

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/pb.../applications/

http://www.race-mart.com/product.asp...LvMaAqTp8P8HAQ

So let's use the calculator to figure the CR on a 428 with 6x-8 heads.

http://www.wallaceracing.com/cr_test2.php

428 + .030, 4.0" stroke, 100cc heads, 5.5cc valve reliefs, .036 x 4.160 gaskets, zero deck.

The calculator says: CR = 8.81

A Voodoo would probably work OK with this combo.

http://www.race-mart.com/product.asp...zIaAtjw8P8HAQ#

A set of 6x-4 heads with 94cc chambers will get the CR up over 9:1.

The calculator says: CR = 9.25 ----- I like it !

With 9.25 CR you won't need a steep ramp cam like the Voodoo or CC XE series.

For smooth idle, gas mileage, and low rpm torque, the Summit 2801 will work. For a little more mid range, the Summit 2802 will do it. But, since you'll have a 5-speed stick, if you wanna little more cam, I'd go with the Melling SPC-8 and Rhoads lifters.

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/su...w/make/pontiac

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/su...w/make/pontiac

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Engine-Camsh...ac259f&vxp=mtr

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/rh...w/make/pontiac

But there are probably dozens of cams that would do a good job in this combo.

[jstoelk625]

I knew that you folks would be a tremendous resource and help answer most of my questions. Several of the things mentioned are just what I was looking for. I do want to maintain a stock look basically but think that from the head standpoint I'm leaning to the 6X4's, primarily because of the available fuel (by the time I start driving there won't be a huge choice of options in the area I'll be living in).
It seems as though using 16 or 62 heads would require more juggling. Am I correct or misinterpreting the info?
I'm curious with your sons FB, DMAC, did he have to dent the firewall? I can still do that prior to painting, if I get this put together in the next little while.
I've talked with several people who had trouble with both Hedman and Hooker when it came to clearance. Is that common or not? Also, several years ago I had a set coated in Tempe, AZ at Jet Hot (I don't that site on the net anymore, at least not in Tempe) and they were great. Any feedback on coating? That engine was build by Terry Bland in Tucson at the time.
I also like the Icon pistons the more I look and think that they'll be the choice. I'll do some more checking on the Probe's.
Also, probably end up going the Melling/Rhoads route with the 5 speed.
I think that I'll switch over to the RA4 intake manifold and go with a Q-jet.
I guess in keeping with more or less stock look, which air cleaner should I look for - single or dual snorkel or will that cause a clearance issue? Does anyone have a part number to look for?
This is still a work in progress and I've some time yet, so if there's more I should be considering please let me know. Thanks again...

[Cliff R]

We found that a 4" stroke 428 build will make the HP of the 4.21 and 4.25" stroke builds pretty easily without a lot of additional rpm's, camshaft or head flow.

A few years back we were hired to build a 428 (434cid) with the goals around 450-480hp. We purchased stone stock KRE aluminum "D" ports with 74cc chambers, flat top Ross pistons and Oliver rods.

The block was exactly zero decked with .039" thick head gaskets, compression ratio 10.6 to 1. We used a custom ground HR cam from Comp 236/242 @ .050" using thier .361" XFI lobes with Crower 1.6 rocker arms.

The heads were gasket matched to a stock Felpro intake gasket, and very minor blending/smoothing under the valves. I didn't remove much more than a tablespoon of material from each head.

We topped the engine with a "modified" factory iron intake and a 1977 Pontiac q-jet. It cranked out 497hp @ 5800rpm's and 540tq at 4200rpm's. It made over 500ft lbs for most of the dyno pull.

While it was on the dyno we tested a port matched Edelbrock RPM intake which made 491hp, and a "modified" HO "re-pop" intake which made 487hp, no other changes and no spacers used.

With the same build using 6X-4 heads and a factory type dished piston and well chosen cam, you're probably looking at closer to 380-400hp. I had that exact engine build in my car for many years with an HO Racing HC-01a cam in it. It was a strong running and reliable engine with great street manners, but never did get it to run into the 12's at the track......Cliff

[dmac]

There is about a 1/2 or 3/4 inch clearance between firewall and HEI dist cap in my son's 69 FB. It is not a 'small cap' dist, but not factory either. Some after market brand. My reason for suggesting the longbranch exhaust is more because headers are such a pain on pontiacs, not because of factory look..They should help underhood temps a little too.

If you decide on HEI, and don't 'dent' the firewall before painting and find later that you should have, do a search here for 'Dave's Small Body HEI Distributors.'

[jstoelk625]

I really appreciate the feedback you guys are giving. It has given me plenty of food for thought and raised a couple of questions in my mind.
PONYAKR, if I understand your estimates on CR correct, you think that a set of 1978 6X4 heads with 94cc will be a good fit. I tried to locate the calculator and for some reason keep coming up short - so let me ask, I came across a set of 69 Ram Air heads (I 'm assuming 722's as I haven't actually laid eyes on them yet and would like to know what to look for to be sure when I do later today/tomorrow) how will they fit into the formula? (I seem to be equation challenged.) If I read the Wallace Head Codes correctly they should be 71cc. Also, by coupling this with a RA4 intake manifold, RA exhaust manifolds, Melling cam, Rhoads lifters are you all thinking that I'll be ok.
Cliff, I don't know what "modified" factory iron intake means. I'm content to not race the engine and am hoping to keep it at its current 30 over, might have to go to 40 in the worse case scenario. It is being zero decked. The KRE's would be wonderful but they're too rich for my wallet which is why I'm leaning as stated. Are you saying that sticking with stock gaskets would be the way to go or did I misread. Would I be better with the RPM intake, I've actually access to that, the RA4, and have a stock iron manifold as well.
DMAC, thanks on the "dent" question, I'm hoping not to go that route and will check out the distributor you suggested.
As an aside if I end up with RA heads, what in your opinions is a decent price?
Just when I think I'm on the right track something always seems to come up to raise another question. I hope you guys are patient with me I just want to do it as correct as possible...Thanks.

[jstoelk625]

As I said another question. To answer Paul, no I don't have the original heads. All I have is what I stated in the initial start, all of which I thought was a pretty good deal for a hundred bucks. Is there really any significant difference in Ross, Icon or the Probe pistons. I had a friend call last night and suggest the Keith Blacks. Any thoughts?

[ponyakr]

Here's the link to the CR calculator again. Just click on it.

http://www.wallaceracing.com/cr_test2.php

A good clean virgin set of RA4 round port heads are probably worth about $5000 now. That is mainly because car collectors are willing to pay high prices for rare, numbers matching musclecars. Most RA4 heads that come up for sale have been ported and raced.

My opinion is that for what you are doing the RA or any other early heads are not the best choice. I'd go with either the 6x-8's with a Voodoo cam, or 6x-4's and the SPC-8 / Rhoads. But one of the Summit cams will save you a few bucks.

If you can get some 6x-8 heads cheap, you can have 'em milled down to lower cc and increase CR. But, the machine shop charges for that too.

You ask about the pistons. The main difference I can see is price. The Probes are cheapest, and the Ross are highest. The Icons are Keith Black forged pistons. They use the Keith Black name now for their line of "hypercast" pistons.

[gtofreek]

Don't use Keith Black Hypereutectic pistons. Accident waiting to happen. Detonate once, and they will butt the rings and break the top of the piston off. Probe is, in my opinion, the lowest quality of those three pistons. They're OK, but I prefer the Icons. Dimensionally, they are right on, and rarely vary more than .0001". I have seen Probes be off as much as .002" in a set of 8. I hear they have gotten better, but based off the few sets I have seen in the past, I won't buy them.

If you think KRE heads are too rich for your blood, you don't even want to hear the price of a set of RA IV heads. 1 1/2-2 times the cost of KRE's. The ones you have heard about for the 69 RA heads, are probably RA III heads, # 48's. Those are D-port heads and can usually be had for a few hundred bucks, for used, rebuildable cores.

[72LuxuryLeMansLa.]

Originally Posted by jstoelk625

I really appreciate the feedback you guys are giving. It has given me plenty of food for thought and raised a couple of questions in my mind.
PONYAKR, if I understand your estimates on CR correct, you think that a set of 1978 6X4 heads with 94cc will be a good fit. I tried to locate the calculator and for some reason keep coming up short - Thanks.

This is a calculator that I really like. You scroll down to the bottom of this page: http://cochise.uia.net/pkelley2/DynamicCR.html and download then install the calculator on your computer. I find that it agrees with the calculations made by my Performance Trends Engine Analyzer program so it makes things easier for me.

[jstoelk625]

Thank you everyone for your information. I consider it all very valuable and you've helped save me from a great deal of headache. The real world information on this site is the best. Merry Christmas