[Sirrotica]

Originally Posted by b-man

I knew the Yugo would come up. Pretty extreme comparison between it and a Benz, don't you think?

Buying a car from a tiny eastern European company with no record of quality or value was a roll of the dice, but if you're desperate for a car and have extremely limited funds you might do that.

The buyer of a mid-priced compact or intermediate should expect a reliable car, and so should the buyer of a higher priced car with more power and features. A car that costs $20k should be no less reliable than one that costs $40K, people don't expect to get half the service life from a car that costs half as much. It doesn't work that way.

If any product costs more, you expect better quality materials and advanced engineering in it, You get what you pay for.........

Harbor Freight Vs Snap On they're not the same quality and they certainly aren't the same price are they? They're both sockets, wrenches, etc. The engineering and material reflects in the price and they don't last the same duration and a reasonable person doesn't expect the lower priced tool to have the same life expectancy, do the same job, or have the same features or engineering as the higher priced tool does, do they?

Both hand tools are lifetime warranty, but you'll have more failures with Harbor freight hand tools than the Snap On hand tools so more trips back to the store for repairs or replacement. Same thing your co worker found out, more repairs for cheaper initial investment.

Below a comparison of a 2015 Taurus Vs a 2014 Lexus ES 350 comparable models:


Comparison Review

Comfort
Passengers in the back seat will be able to stretch out a lot more in the Lexus ES 350 than the Ford Taurus, due to its greater head- and legroom. Offering just a little more front head- and legroom than the Lexus ES 350, the Ford Taurus may be a little roomier and more comfortable for the driver and front seat passengers.
Convenience
You'll be making about the same number of stops at the gas station with the Ford Taurus as you will with the Lexus ES 350, as they get the same number of miles per tank of gas.
Cost
There are a lot of factors to consider when calculating the overall cost of a vehicle. The main consideration is Manufacturer's Suggested Retail Price (MSRP). When looking only at MSRP, the Ford Taurus will have less of an impact on your bank account than the Lexus ES 350. Another consideration is the Destination Charge, which is a standard charge for transporting the vehicle to the dealer from where it's built. The Ford Taurus carries a much lower Destination Charge than the Lexus ES 350.
Dimensions
Since the Ford Taurus is much wider than the Lexus ES 350, finding a wide enough spot in a parking lot may be a bit more challenging. If you go with the Ford Taurus, you may be circling the block looking for a space large enough to park more often than with the Lexus ES 350.
Drivetrain
With similar torque, the Ford Taurus and the Lexus ES 350 do an equal job of transmitting their engine's power to their wheels.
Handling
The Ford Taurus has a larger turning radius than the Lexus ES 350, making it slightly more difficult to maneuver in and out of tight spots.
Performance
When it comes to horsepower, the Ford Taurus is somewhat more powerful than the Lexus ES 350.
Utility
In terms of seating you'll be able to fit the same number of people in both the Ford Taurus and the Lexus ES 350. With its significantly greater cargo capacity, the Ford Taurus will be able to haul more equipment or luggage than the Lexus ES 350.
Warranty
The basic warranty of the Ford Taurus is not as nearly as extensive as that of the Lexus ES 350.
Taurus 3 years/36,000 miles - Lexus 4 years 50,000 miles.



Invoice: $24,959 - $34,300

Again, you get what you pay for.

For roughly $10,000 more you expect a better quality car, better warranty, better features, and comparison confirms the higher price equals higher quality reflected in a longer warranty.

Now the $13,000 your co worker put in his Taurus for repairs makes the cars fairly equal dollar per dollar. The labor to replace parts after the car is already built is going to be higher than the labor to put higher quality parts in during assembly line building. Pay me now or pay me later. Simple concept proven many times over on any product, be it tools or cars, vacuum sweepers or refrigerators.

[Alvin]

Originally Posted by 72projectbird

Well to be fair, those 5.0 Stangs are still cool to this very day.

Agree. Had a White, w White Rag-top & Burgundy gut '88 5.0 GT.

The image below is similar to old friend Troy's Turbo Formy - his was dark grey paint w Blue gut, nice looking car...always playing w "boost" tweaking, tuning, engineering to "sqeeze out a little more" until I chided him: "When are you going to buy a 'real Pontiac motor, like @ least a 400?!"
Naturally he was initially offended; after logic return of $$$ per platform discussion w him, he analyzed data and ended up buying & showing up in the '79 Y-84 W72 4-spd TA @ other Camaro Fbody friends house, and again, we all ran out excited about his ride! Lots of H.O. Racing subtle mods to suspension, engine, drivetrain, etc. were added to enhance its' stock appearance. I bought it off of him in '91 and still own it...

[Sirrotica]

Originally Posted by goatwgn

X2! That has been my experience working on peoples junk for years. Agree 100%. By the way the LUV was Isuzu's pos. Mitsubishi made the pos "D50" for Dodge, as well as a bunch of oil burning 2.6/ 3.0 litre engines.

Your correct, it was Isuzu, as you get older the CRS creeps up on you. The D 50 was a jewel too. Almost forgot the VW 1.7 used in the early K cars, another great foreign made power plant.

The slide down valve guides in those V6s from Mitsubishi were a engineering feat. Whoever thought you could engineer a valve guide that would move in the head caused by dissimilar materials.

When you work on the stuff everyday you really get to know what lasts and what was poorly engineered from the get go and used inferior materials. 45 years turning wrenches gets me the real time experience in to who made the right decisions when the stuff was engineered and speced for materials.

[Alvin]

This:
Topic 1982 Turbo Trans Am (301) - Third Generation .org
'Frankie Rider said: "Since Jeremy and Jetmeck are so fond of these 301 Turbo cars, let me weigh in as well.

I have owned two of these cars... one until last year.... and they are right: they are nothing compared to their big-cube forebearers. One good thing about the car was that with the WS6 package, it was a nicely balanced package to drive. The lighter engine in the front made the car drive crisper, or at least it seemed that way to me. The turn-in was amazing, especially with 70-series tires.

But most people who saw my car expressed surprise at seeing a Turbo 4.9L T/A that was still complete and working; the fact that the engine hadn't yet blown to smithereens was almost unbelievable to people.

But do not ever buy one thinking you are getting a performance machine because you most certainly are not. BTW, the hood lights were used only on cars built from January 1980 onward; cars built prior to that date (like my '80) had a blank plate inside the bulge.

As for the 3rdGens and this engine, there were at least some plans to use this motor in the '82 T/A before the advent of the corporate engine edict by GM. In the book "Detroit Cars" by Martin Derrick on page 266 there is this 8x10 photo showing two views of what appears to be a pre-production example of the '82 Trans Am, front and rear. In the front view, a decal reading "TURBO T/A" is readily visible on the hood bulge...."

[hurryinhoosier62]

Originally Posted by Sirrotica

The taurus broke down constantly since the day it was bought, and all 7 lexus were perfect and never broke down ever, Okay I can see that's not a comparison........................



I worked as a line mechanic at a Buick dealership from 1982-1985, I am quite well aware of what GM was selling then. I owned an 81 Bonneville diesel, supposedly one of the worst engines GM ever made. Mine ran over 150,000 until I sold it without any problems with the engine or transmission, 20 MPG in town and as good as 32 MPG on the road.

One of the biggest problems with the 5.7 diesel is no one including GM dealerships knew how to properly maintain it. Wrong oil, most dealerships used gasoline engine oils. No one ever cleaned or replaced the breather elements in the valve covers. Crankcase pressure builds up and ruins the ring seal as well as blows the front and rear crank seals.

1987 3.8 FWD Bonneville close to 200,000 miles when I sold it because of rust on the body, running gear was still fine. Transmission was O/H at 100,000 miles. 92 SSE Bonneville transmission replaced at 100,000 miles went to 200,000 miles and was wrecked.

I already explained I owned a Z24 Cavalier that went to 200,000 miles until the timing chain took a dump.

My current 93 K3500 dually with Detroit Diesel 6.5 Turbo Diesel 245,000 miles also supposed to be a junk engine. Runs well and saves me fuel over a gas engine.



Foreign and domestic car makers have both made junk as well as good cars. Toyota and Honda were keeping their recalls hidden from the US gov't NHTSA pretty well until recently. The wonderful Toyotas have had their share of recalls both above board and under the table since the unintended acceleration incident showed evidence that Toyota knew there were problems with their cars and were keeping silent as well. Same as GM knew about their ignition switch problems for years and didn't address it head on.

Takata, the Japanese owned air bag manufacturer made millions of defective air bags and won't recall them and is under the eye of NHTSA. Just because it's designed by a Japanese company doesn't make it perfect. They can all screw up and it's proven.

Consumer Reports until recently always gave glowing reviews to foreign makers, now it seems they're backing off of the foreign manufacturers as they have proven they're indeed fallible. Consumer Reports as well as other magazines touted the foreign cars and faulted the domestic cars. Perceived attitudes had help from magazine writers. Not saying the domestic cars didn't have problems and they lost market share from it in the 80s, but the publications during that time didn't help.

For every foreign car success story their are domestic success stories too. For every disaster someone relays about a domestic car there are also foreign disaster stories. If it's mechanical it can break, no matter what nameplate it has or how much it cost new.

Well said, Brad.

[goatwgn]

Originally Posted by Alvin

This:
Topic 1982 Turbo Trans Am (301) - Third Generation .org
'Frankie Rider said: "Since Jeremy and Jetmeck are so fond of these 301 Turbo cars, let me weigh in as well.

I have owned two of these cars... one until last year.... and they are right: they are nothing compared to their big-cube forebearers. One good thing about the car was that with the WS6 package, it was a nicely balanced package to drive. The lighter engine in the front made the car drive crisper, or at least it seemed that way to me. The turn-in was amazing, especially with 70-series tires.

But most people who saw my car expressed surprise at seeing a Turbo 4.9L T/A that was still complete and working; the fact that the engine hadn't yet blown to smithereens was almost unbelievable to people.

But do not ever buy one thinking you are getting a performance machine because you most certainly are not. BTW, the hood lights were used only on cars built from January 1980 onward; cars built prior to that date (like my '80) had a blank plate inside the bulge.

As for the 3rdGens and this engine, there were at least some plans to use this motor in the '82 T/A before the advent of the corporate engine edict by GM. In the book "Detroit Cars" by Martin Derrick on page 266 there is this 8x10 photo showing two views of what appears to be a pre-production example of the '82 Trans Am, front and rear. In the front view, a decal reading "TURBO T/A" is readily visible on the hood bulge...."

And I think that is the main focus of the article from the OP. It is fun to speculate "what if" there had been an "improved" turbo 301 in the '82 TA, as well as a turbo 301 with improved block, lower end, and fuel injection by 1985. A beefier built fuel injected 301 would have been cool in the GP 2+2 as well. I still think Pontiac should have just dusted off the 303 block in 1977 if they needed a short deck block. Would have weighed a bit more, but it would have been a lot better platform, with the smaller displacement they were looking for. I think the 301 and the 265 were experiments in "weight savings"- sort of like the 557 block taken to the extreme. (I still have an old Hot Rod magazine from 1976 that shows the 301 on the front cover, with the differences between that and the Pontiac 350.) That being said, I have seen the non turbo 301 and 265 go for hundreds of thousands of miles under their stock power levels.

[Alvin]

This Was One Hard Act To Follow...FYI: this car is featured HERE as it appeared in HPP.

[1967SC]

Jim Mattison(PHS) wrote an aticle for The Legend,that was much better,and stated the real reason the Pontiac brand died.

[goatwgn]

Originally Posted by 1967SC

Jim Mattison(PHS) wrote an aticle for The Legend,that was much better,and stated the real reason the Pontiac brand died.

Do you have a link to that? Sounds like interesting reading.

[1967SC]

Originally Posted by goatwgn

Do you have a link to that? Sounds like interesting reading.

The Legend is the GTOAA monthly magazine.I can't remember what month it was in.IIRC sometime in 2013.
Sorry

[Wareagle]

Here's a interesting read on what killed Pontiac . For Pontiacs 301 Turbo Program its not on what is was at the time but what it could have become in 3rd and 4th Gen. T/A's etc.

http://www.gulfweekly.com/Articles.aspx?articleid=22045

[Wareagle]

Here's a video of a 14 sec. 81 Turbo T/A Pace Car - he had a best of 14.5 that day in the 1/4 mile with just extra boost and a few tricks - this is not a race car . Some details are talked about in the video comments

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bUsqf28e6pQ

[aukc]

Originally Posted by 1967SC

Jim Mattison(PHS) wrote an aticle for The Legend,that was much better,and stated the real reason the Pontiac brand died.

I too am very interesting in the Legend article by Jim Mattison, I hope it can somehow be shared. I did find this from the April 2013 Tiger Times, mentions seminar by Jim at Colorado in 2012

[goatwgn]

Thanks for the post. Jim Wangers has a right to be passionate about Pontiac. Look at all he did for them in the '60s, and now to have accountants, bean counters, and politicians dump all over it is unreal.

[goatwgn]

Originally Posted by Wareagle

Here's a video of a 14 sec. 81 Turbo T/A Pace Car - he had a best of 14.5 that day in the 1/4 mile with just extra boost and a few tricks - this is not a race car . Some details are talked about in the video comments

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bUsqf28e6pQ

If anybody stops and thinks, almost every car in 1980-81 was a wimp. The Turbo T/A, while not the firebreather the early '70s were, or even comparable to the actual feel and performance of the 400/403 cars that preceded it, was a good effort from Pontiac with what they were up against in the early '80s. CAFE, and the EPA were really starting to dig in and get a good hold on the automobile by then, as well as "Gas Crisis no 2".

[aukc]

Originally Posted by 1967SC

Jim Mattison(PHS) wrote an aticle for The Legend,that was much better,and stated the real reason the Pontiac brand died.

this guest editorial by Jim Mattison appeared in the April 2013 issue of Smoke Signals, I don't think there could possibly be a more authentic explaination. Bottom line, in Jim's words "It didn't take 40 or 50 years to sink Pontiac, it only took eight (1996-2004)"

[goatwgn]

Thanks for printing this article as well. Just started getting Smoke Signals a few months ago. Like the fact that someone in publishing is staying dedicated to Pontiac. Thanks to the morons at GM, I now own 3 "orphan cars". (2 Pontiacs and 1 Oldsmobile)

[Wareagle]

Originally Posted by goatwgn

If anybody stops and thinks, almost every car in 1980-81 was a wimp. The Turbo T/A, while not the firebreather the early '70s were, or even comparable to the actual feel and performance of the 400/403 cars that preceded it, was a good effort from Pontiac with what they were up against in the early '80s. CAFE, and the EPA were really starting to dig in and get a good hold on the automobile by then, as well as "Gas Crisis no 2".

X2 Also Pontiacs 301 Turbo program wasn't even given a chance to show what it could do with fuel injection - bigger turbo - intercooler etc. . Would like to see a 3rd or 4th Gen. T/A with such a setup

[uneasyrider]

"Pontiac’s last V-8 was strangled in the crib by that goateed, white-haired old codger. GM decided it was less hassle — and less expense — to “corporatize” its divisions. To have one engine family (Chevy V-8) rather than have each multiple separate divisions with separate engineering departments engineering their own brand-specific engines. This is why Pontiac — and Oldsmobile’s and Buick’s — V-8 programs went away."

What they didn't factor in is less variety also means less creativity and less chance of survival in times of change.

[aukc]

What Really Happened to Pontiac
Guest Editorial – Jim Mattison
Smoke Signals April 2013

The demise of Pontiac didn’t take almost 50 years as some have proclaimed. Nor were
the general managers of the 70’s, 80’s and early 90’s to blame, as some have suggested. I
believe that I am qualified to comment on the subject as I was there, inside the walls of
Pontiac’s headquarters from 1989-1997.

It all began in 1992 when the GM Board of Directors decided to go outside the
corporation and hire new leadership. They were out to remove the current Chairman and
CEO, Bob Stemple, who was a good automobile man, engineer and person. They elected
former Board member John Smale as the new Chairman.

Smale hired an exec from Bausch and Lomb, Ron Zarrella to move GM forward into the
new millennium, Zarrella was supposedly a whiz at mass marketing and was put in
charge of all GM North American Operations.

He was later found to not have a clue of how to run a car company. Additionally, his
credentials and masters degree were later found to be false.

Zarrella brought in many of his cronies and placed them in key positions through-out the
company. Many of you may remember that it was during this time period that
Oldsmobile Division was closed.

At the time the current GM vice president and general manager of Pontiac Division was
John Middlebrook. John became general manager in 1989 and had literally spent his
entire career at Pontiac and was originally hired into Pontiac directly by John DeLorean.
John was a bright business person and a staunch advocate for Pontiac at GM corporate
meetings. Among other things he championed the redesigned ’97 Grand Prix, 4th
generation Firebird and all Ram Air programs.

However, in 1996 Zarrella decided to merge Pontiac and GMC Divisions into one. This
was not a merger… it was a takeover. In every instance, the key positions within this new
Pontiac-GMC Division were staffed by a body from GMC. Middlebrook got promoted
and moved over to become the new general manager of Chevy, replacing Jim Perkins.
Meanwhile, Roy Roberts, the previous general manager of GMC Division became the
general manager of the newly created Pontiac-GMC Division. This, in my opinion, was
the beginning of the end for Pontiac.

Roy Roberts never spent so much as a single day running Pontiac-GMC. His trucks were
selling well and he put the division on “auto pilot” while he spent all of his time
gathering cultural diversity awards around the countryside. Finally, in 1999 Roberts was
forced into retirement and replaced by Lynn Myers as general marketing manager of
Pontiac-GMC.

Lynn held that position from 1999 until 2004, when she retired. Her accomplishments at
Pontiac-GMC included the Aztek and the mishandling of the return of the GTO. She was
also the one who pulled Pontiac out of NASCAR racing.

Lynn was a very nice lady, but she was no general manager or leader. Whatever the
corporation wanted she would go along with. She relied heavily on another of the
Zarrella cronies named Bob Kraut, who she put in charge of Grand Prix, Firebird and
GTO brands. The excitement was gone from the Excitement Division!

Maybe you are starting to see what was happening, “No One Was Watching the Store”
from 1996 to 2004! It didn’t take 40 or 50 years to sink Pontiac, it only took eight.

However, there were a few bright spots; the first was a man named Bob Lutz and the
other Jim Bunnell a die-hard Pontiac man, who replaced Lynn Myers as general
marketing manager.

Lutz and Bunnell tried to revive Pontiac as a specialty division with products like the
Solstice and others that were ready, but it was too little too late.

When the GM bankruptcy came, the federal government determined that GM had too
many divisions and some had to go. First went Hummer and Saturn, then it became a
toss-up between Pontiac and Buick. Pontiac was out selling Buick almost 6 to 1 in North
America. However, there was a new market emerging in China and the name Buick was
popular there, thanks to the emperor of China who saw Buick as an emblem of
status…Pontiac was out and officially closed their door on 10/31/2010.