[b-man]

Originally Posted by John V.

I glanced over your production nos.

The GTO option was added to the base Lemans of course.

Do you know for sure that the production nos. you listed for the Lemans convertibles excluded the GTO convertibles?

I have never seen production nos. except for the GTO so I am curious if your nos. are accurate.

I believe on the Data Plate, they did not separate the GTO convertible Body count from the Lemans convertible Body count.

I do believe they DID separate the Tempest Custom convertible Body count from the Lemans convertible on the Data Plate.

But I was not aware that production nos. were available separating the GTO from the Lemans. Only way I knew to estimate the nos. was from the Data Plate using the Body No. counts from each Plant but those would have lumped the Lemans and GTO counts together.

One more item, the 2 bbl 326 was UPC L30.

[b-man]

Originally Posted by brut4s

Very cool!! Anything going on with the Tempest?

Collected a few parts for it recently (oil pan, exhaust manifolds), hoping to get back to it soon.

[geeteeohguy]

Bart, 25 years ago I tried to buy a Saddle/saddle/white top '64 GTO ragtop out of Walnut Creek, CA. I had spotted itsitting in a yard. It had been resprayed Cameo Ivory, but was originally saddle colored. Automatic, very rew options. It would have needed paint and rubber parts plus a powertrain overhaul to get it on the road. Couldn't agree on a price....the owners were several thousand dollars too high, IMO. Neat color combo, not often seen today. And yes, the 2.56 gears/TH400 will be great with your engine choice. My low compression stock 400 has no problem pulling them, and the sweet spot is about 80 mph, which is about 2500 rpm/20mpg. Keep posting your progress!

[3 Deuce 64]

Originally Posted by b-man

Of interest is the fact that 17,559 LeMans convertibles were produced in 1964, accounting for 7.47% of total "A" body production. Along the same line, 7,987 Tempest Custom convertibles were built along with 6,644 GTO convertibles, accounting for 3.39% and 2.83% of "A" body production respectively. So added up only 13.69% of all "A" body production consisted of convertible bodied cars.

The automatic trans standard 2-barrel 326 was produced in a quantity of 68,242 as compared to 17,317 manual-trans versions.

I like your stats . I have two of those 2.83% , so how many of those 2.83% were Tri Power 4 speeds ?
I've cut up a number of 64 convertibles , still the remains of a Tempest custom here and the front clip off a lemans, probably shouldn't have cut so many up.

So when it's all said and done those of us that have a 64 convertible with any name tag on it have some pretty rare cars .

[b-man]

Originally Posted by 3 Deuce 64

I like your stats . I have two of those 2.83% , so how many of those 2.83% were Tri Power 4 speeds ?
I've cut up a number of 64 convertibles , still the remains of a Tempest custom here and the front clip off a lemans, probably shouldn't have cut so many up.

So when it's all said and done those of us that have a 64 convertible with any name tag on it have some pretty rare cars .

I would guess that many of the cars you cut up were too rusty to restore for what would be considered a reasonable cost. I'm sure their parts were used to keep other convertibles on the road whenever convertible-specific pieces were cut from them.

Back before they were rare or valuable cars it was an easy decision to part out and scrap the GTOs too, even some relatively rust-free California cars met this fate.

Unfortunately they can't all be saved.

Even if I can't ever do a complete restoration on my car, it will get fixed and driven.

[b-man]

Ordered a reproduction window sticker from Mike Noun a couple of days ago, will post a scan of it here in this thread.

Mike's website:http://www.musclecarfilms.com/PontiacWindowSticker.html

I'd like to say thanks to those of you who have contributed information here, otherwise it would have been much more difficult to have all of the correct info needed to make up the window sticker.

I'm anxious to see how much this car would have originally sold for, a very nicely equipped and luxurious sporty convertible.

Must have been quite a beauty upholstered all in Saddle and painted in Saddle Bronze lacquer rolling off the showroom floor.

[Tom Vaught]

Think it would have been a real crowd stopper on the streets of california, lemans or GTO option. It will be more impressive with the 421 power and the other mods.

Good job, B-Man.

Tom V.

[John V.]

b-man, please ask Mike if he is familiar with the '64 Fremont style Window Sticker format. I think yours is Fremont, right?

It is quite different in layout from the Pontiac style.

Mike is doing fantastic work on these but as I also have a Fremont car, I'm hoping he can do them in the Fremont style. When PHS was doing them, I think they only did the Pontiac style, a big disappointment for those of us with Fremont cars and also for KC/Balt cars as they had their OWN unique style as well.

I will be happy to help if Mike needs to see a sample of the Fremont style or hopefully he has already collected a good one to use as the template.

Would appreciate hearing back on this as I should also order one for my car.

[b-man]

Originally Posted by Tom Vaught

Think it would have been a real crowd stopper on the streets of california, lemans or GTO option. It will be more impressive with the 421 power and the other mods.

Good job, B-Man.

Tom V.

Thanks Tom, I also have in my stash a Doug Nash 5-speed if I ever feel the need to manually shift gears. For now I'll keep the auto trans and console for both simplicity and ease of cruising in heavy traffic.

Will probably paint up a set of 14X6" steel wheels in Saddle to use with a set of poverty caps, switching back and forth between those and the Hurst wheels to keep things interesting.

Originally Posted by John V.

b-man, please ask Mike if he is familiar with the '64 Fremont style Window Sticker format. I think yours is Fremont, right?

It is quite different in layout from the Pontiac style.

Mike is doing fantastic work on these but as I also have a Fremont car, I'm hoping he can do them in the Fremont style. When PHS was doing them, I think they only did the Pontiac style, a big disappointment for those of us with Fremont cars and also for KC/Balt cars as they had their OWN unique style as well.

I will be happy to help if Mike needs to see a sample of the Fremont style or hopefully he has already collected a good one to use as the template.

Would appreciate hearing back on this as I should also order one for my car.

John, I sent an email to Mike and copied your post quoted above. Will let you know what he says after he gets back to me. Mike says he has been following this thread so perhaps he'll post his answer here.

[MikeNoun]

b-man and John V, yes, I use the correct window sticker format based on the original production plant. Each plant had a slightly different format, some used commas for thousandths notation, some did not, some used UPC codes, some sorted options differently.

John V, thank you for the offer to forward a Fremont window sticker! Please send to mnoun@yahoo.com. I always appreciate more examples of originals. No matter how many I examine, I always seem to find variations. I make notes on variations from year to year, model to model, even month to month changes in formatting. I've also conducted a great deal of research at the Pontiac-Oakland Museum.

I've worked on several 1964's. This was one of the Fremont versions I completed a couple weeks ago (this is a rough draft, not on good paper). 1964 Fremont-builds are quite unique.

1965-up Fremont-build window stickers continued to be different than all other plants.

Thank you again,

Mike

[MikeNoun]

A correction to my post. The 64 window sticker I posted above was NOT a final copy, it was an early rough draft. It was simply to show what the format of a 1964 Fremont-build window sticker looks like. Many things were changed on this window sticker before the final print, and the final prints are much clearer, brighter, and sharper.

Thank you,

Mike

[b-man]

The engine block code 960 and motor unit number 269851 both match the PHS documentation.

That's a good thing.

All of the correct factory air conditioning pulleys, brackets, heavy-duty radiator, tall core support and matching steel fan shroud were still intact and in good condition.



She's a tired ol' gal, note the spark plug extension on the left to combat oil fouling.



Looks like she was treated to a 'rattle-can rebuild' at one time in a lovely shade of Chevy orange.



The original valley pan was robbed for my 421 HO and replaced by a '65 -'67 unit to help keep the big spiders out.



Two expanding rubber repair freeze plugs on this side.



Another one on this side along with a rotten original plug that's about ready to let go.



Headed back into long-term dry storage.

Someday if gasoline prices really go through the roof this miserly 2-barrel 326 could again become the source of motivation for the Le Mans.

[b-man]

Cleaned off some grease to find the block casting date code 'A214' along with the block casting number 9773153.

[b-man]

Back when I first bought the car I was cleaning out the trunk and this floated up while washing out the bottom inside of the rear quarters using a garden hose equipped with a high-pressure nozzle.

Touch-up paint in Saddle Bronze, the original color. Not all dried-out either which was kind of surprising.

Did this normally come with a new car or did it have to be bought at the parts counter?

[John V.]

Cast date is a good "fit" for the Engine Unit No. Thx for posting it.

Touch up paint was available from the Dealer as a maintenance accessory item. Not with a new car (unless a particular dealer tossed it in as bonus perk).

Cars that were built with Special Order paint colors were furnished with a quart of paint from the factory but regular paint color cars got nothing.

In the '66 MPC, they list '63-'64 "Tan Paint", Code "S" available in a "Spray Can" under p/n 1050355 or as an "Applicator" (I assume a touch-up bottle) under p/n 1050287.

Same Saddle Bronze color was available in both '63 and '64.

Is there a p/n on your bottle?

Curious that the MPC only lists the colors generically, not by the Pontiac marketing names, but I see your bottle is labeled "Saddle Bronze-S". Don't know if your bottle would date to the '64-'66 time frame or perhaps a later time frame with the bottles given an updated look and the marketing names identified in place of a generic color name?

Since colors were shared by the different GM Divs using different marketing names, the same generically labeled bottle could be offered by all Div dealers without distinguishing by brand. Obviously your bottle would have been offered by a Pontiac dealer only, giving it the air of authenticity of color match, even though you could have gotten the same thing from a Chevy dealer (Saddle Tan), Olds dealer (Saddle Mist), or Buick dealer (Bronze Mist) assuming they also sold bottles labeled with their paint color marketing names.

If they switched at some point from generically labeled to specifically labeled bottles, I expect there was a p/n change, so if there is a p/n on the bottle that would offer a clue and maybe help figure out the vintage of the paint. Perhaps a later MPC would list revised p/ns?

Cool find and more so that it isn't dried out.

[John V.]

Checked around, looks like these touch-up bottles were a common dealership item for all brands in the '60s and '70s.

A few different kinds of display racks.

Note the GM one is for Chevy-Pontiac, shows GM on the label.

The AMC one shows the logo style (although red & white instead of red, white, and blue) which originated in 1970.

What is interesting about the AMC display, it details the features which includes Rubbing Compound stored in the cap. Pull the brush out and find the handy compound. Wonder if yours also includes the rubbing compound in the cap?

It appears that Dupli-Color was the likely vendor, the bottle design with the cap chamber allowing for filling with rubbing compound is described in this patent.

https://www.google.com/patents/US2983946

Edelstone founded Dupli-Color in 1938.

[John V.]

Another forum member emailed me, he has bottles of Black, one with the GM labeling and one with the Pontiac labeling.

Based on these bottles and what he tells me, the bottles labeled "Pontiac" are the earlier style.

They will show the Pontiac marketing name for the color and the code for it, in his case shows "Starlight Black-A".

It also shows the Dupont Lucite Acrylic formula code for the paint on the label, in his case 868-96459.

Presumably each GM Div had their own version, Buick for example called their Black "Regal Black", but it was the same paint color used by all other GM Divs., including Cadillac, they called it Sable Black. Would have shown the same Dupont formula code on the labels, only the Div name and the marketing color name would have varied.

Because each bottle was unique to a single Div., I assume the p/ns were different even though the color was same.

It looks like starting with the '66 Model Year, they went to the GM labeled bottle.

It shows the p/n 1050267, the same p/n as listed for the generic color "Black" in the '66 MPC.

And it also shows the color as generic "Black" on the label, same as indicated in the '66 MPC.

It also shows "Code 63-66-10-A" on the label. I believe that decodes as Model Years '63 thru '66 Paint Codes 10 and A.

Cadillac coded Black as "10", Chevy and the B-O-P Divs coded Black as "A" regardless of the marketing name they used for it.

I would guess it cost less to go to the generic "GM" labeling, probably why it was changed.

b-man, since your bottle shows "Pontiac" on the label, I would say that it is likely a pre-'66 Model Year bottle. Can't say for sure it was purchased when the car was new because I'm guessing the dealer might have kept unsold touch-up paint in stock for awhile. But pretty good chance your bottle was produced at least 50 yrs ago!

Hmmm, if you had enough of it and could paint the whole car, does that count as "original paint"!

[b-man]

Interesting that the engine block was cast just a little over 3 weeks before the car was built.

There is rubbing compound inside the touch up paint bottle cap, the little red cap that unscrews from the black cap has the compound inside it.

I will dig out the paint bottle and look for a part number, I think I stashed it inside the console.

[b-man]

Big thanks to Mike Noun for the great-looking sticker delivered in a timely manner and to John V for helping out with verifying information.

I'd say this was a fairly expensive mid-size car for 1964, the sticker price is just over four thousand dollars.

[Vet65te]

B-Man - Been a while since I perused the threads here but ran across yours and noticed that my '64 GTO was also sold at Chieftain Pontiac in Los Angeles and just like yours, was also shipped to: Car Service Inc, located in Montebello Calif. The 'build sheet' has Cheiftain Pontiac listed as 1200 So. Western Avenue. My 64 was built in early June at Fremont and was also Saddle Bronze but with a Black Interior. Sticker price on mine was a couple hundred less than your convertible, around $3800.