[johnta1]

Great Post!

[Tom Vaught]

Originally Posted by 67GTO4SPEED

Yes it was, but you started talking about Ford's dominance, which only happened when GM was out of racing. That is just a fact. I'm sorry if that hurts your feelings, but you constantly hang around this board boasting about Ford's superiority to Pontiacs, while Chevy has pretty much dominated Ford in most major racing organizations for the last 60 years.

Ford Dominated because Henry II was going to buy Ferrari from Enzo for 10 million and Enzo backed out at the last minute. So Henry Ii told his new wife "I will build a better car than Ferrari for you to drive."

Read the article. http://blogs.motortrend.com/what-if-...rari-1895.html

So you are wrong again. You have an opinion but the fact is Ford DOMINATED in World Class Racing "An enraged Henry authorized the development of the Ford GT40, with the express goal of humiliating Enzo's blood-red sports racers in the Le Mans 24 Hour race. Which it duly did, four times in a row from 1966."
He spent 7 Million on just the Le Mans effort. $52,682,179 in 2015 dollars.

He could give a Rats Aze about NASCAR, Trans Am club racing, etc at the time.

You guys need to do a little research vs assume stuff. It is well documented in many books and articles.

Tom V.

[John Langer]

Pontiacs are competitive on a national level and have been for years. Me, Dwight, Snyder, Kinsler... All have won multiple heads up races against the big 3.

[67GTO4SPEED]

Originally Posted by Tom Vaught

Ford Dominated because Henry II was going to buy Ferrari from Enzo for 10 million and Enzo backed out at the last minute. So Henry Ii told his new wife "I will build a better car than Ferrari for you to drive."

Read the article. http://blogs.motortrend.com/what-if-...rari-1895.html

So you are wrong again. You have an opinion but the fact is Ford DOMINATED in World Class Racing "An enraged Henry authorized the development of the Ford GT40, with the express goal of humiliating Enzo's blood-red sports racers in the Le Mans 24 Hour race. Which it duly did, four times in a row from 1966."
He spent 7 Million on just the Le Mans effort. $52,682,179 in 2015 dollars.

He could give a Rats Aze about NASCAR, Trans Am club racing, etc at the time.

You guys need to do a little research vs assume stuff. It is well documented in many books and articles.

Tom V.

I'm not assuming anything - I know that story well, Tom.

However, since this topic was about Pontiac, and since Pontiac (nor GM in general) ever built a mid engine GT style car to compete in that style of racing, I'm struggling to see how this is relevant to the topic.

My point was that Ford has rarely dominated in NHRA racing or NASCAR racing, which were racing series that Pontiacs were once competing in. In those series, Chevy has been the dominant force, which was my point.

[Half-Inch Stud]

Seems the PMD CYL designers went to Ford soon after that racing ban. RA V casting on the R&D board before they generated the 1968 Ford 302 head: http://www.wrljet.com/fordv8/tp302.html

should make you go Hmmm if ya didn't see these Intake pushrod tube in SMALL block Ford Runners before.

[rad400]

This is my opinion on it. Chevy has always been afraid of Pontiac. I think the Pontiac engine is such a Superior engine that's is why they killed it off. I am still surprised Pontiac could do the SD455 and kept the 455 till 76. I think had the 301 turbo motor was in the 3 gen birds and Grand Prix it will have been way better the the GN motor. I think if Pontiac was still around with the I.A. II block and Ram Air V heads in the new Trans am with direct injection and ECU ect. would spank any LS, LT1 motor in the new vette, Camaro.

[Tom Vaught]

Originally Posted by Half-Inch Stud

Seems the PMD CYL designers went to Ford soon after that racing ban. RA V casting on the R&D board before they generated the 1968 Ford 302 head: http://www.wrljet.com/fordv8/tp302.html

should make you go Hmmm if ya didn't see these Intake pushrod tube in SMALL block Ford Runners before.

HIS, Ford engineers tell me they had the Tunnel Port Design for the 427 Engine in 1965 as part of the research on the engines to be used in the 1966 Le Mans engines. The engineers also said the engines were 'Soft' off the corners with the TP Head so they went with the High Riser/Mid Riser heads instead. They also said it you got rid of the 3.76 stroke (427) crank and put a 4.00"+ crank in the engines, the engine loved the TP Heads per Bob LaFollette jr.


Tom V.

[KO]

Edsel Mercury or Lincoln ever even competitive at all? Pontiac is a division of GM and all the racing money goes to Chevrolet, Pontiac Buick Olds GMC and Cadillac were all involved in racing but never to the level of backing Chevy got.

[Half-Inch Stud]

Originally Posted by Tom Vaught

HIS, Ford engineers tell me they had the Tunnel Port Design for the 427 Engine in 1965 as part of the research on the engines to be used in the 1966 Le Mans engines. The engineers also said the engines were 'Soft' off the corners with the TP Head so they went with the High Riser/Mid Riser heads instead. They also said it you got rid of the 3.76 stroke (427) crank and put a 4.00"+ crank in the engines, the engine loved the TP Heads per Bob LaFollette jr. Tom V.

Yea, would be good to pin down when a Windeler arrived at Ford. Could have been 63-65, but I dunno.

[Tom Vaught]

Originally Posted by KO

Edsel Mercury or Lincoln ever even competitive at all? Pontiac is a division of GM and all the racing money goes to Chevrolet, Pontiac Buick Olds GMC and Cadillac were all involved in racing but never to the level of backing Chevy got.

Edsel, Mercury, or Lincoln were never "in the loop" for racing after WW-II times.

Pontiac and Olds are not presently Divisions of General Motors and have not been for quite a few years now. They are both dead divisions, killed and sold off.

Tom V.

[KO]

Originally Posted by Tom Vaught

Edsel, Mercury, or Lincoln were never "in the loop" for racing after WW-II times.

Pontiac and Olds are not presently Divisions of General Motors and have not been for quite a few years now. They are both dead divisions, killed and sold off.

Tom V.

well comparing Pontiac factory supported racing to Ford Racing is like comparing Edsel to Ferrari. Chief Pontiac didn't have a strong desire to dump cash into racing. There was no personal interest like to Ford family wishing to beat Ferrari (with 7 liter engines against 4.5 liter)


GM Racing to Ford Racing comparison, GM has more wins

[Tom Vaught]

In World Class racing, you could bring out Leno's tank car and IF could run the laps and turn the corners and brake when it was supposed to brake no one would say any thing.

Why go to a gun fight with a water pistol.

Speaking of which, a single 697 CID Ford Mustang (Naturally Aspirated) at Milan is quicker than 99.5% of the Pontiacs out there running today.

That is all that needs to be said.

Tom V.

[67GTO4SPEED]

Originally Posted by Tom Vaught

Speaking of which, a single 697 CID Ford Mustang (Naturally Aspirated) at Milan is quicker than 99.5% of the Pontiacs out there running today.

That is all that needs to be said.

Tom V.

Yet, with nearly 700 cu in, it is not fast enough to crack the top 10 list of the fastest naturally Pontiacs.

[GOAT WHORE]

Originally Posted by 67GTO4SPEED

Yet, with nearly 700 cu in, it is not fast enough to crack the top 10 list of the fastest naturally Pontiacs.

[Kevspontiacs@aol.com]

Originally Posted by Tom Vaught

Speaking of which, a single 697 CID Ford Mustang (Naturally Aspirated) at Milan is quicker than 99.5% of the Pontiacs out there running today.

That is all that needs to be said.

Tom V.

and that 99.5% of Pontiacs are still faster than you

[ponyakr]

"When was a Pontiac no longer competitive on a National basis"


Since the question says "a Pontiac", and not the Pontiac division, I'll have to say there have been hundreds of competitive Pontiacs through the years, in drag racing. Many of these Pontiacs have set and reset their National record many times, in Stock and Super Stock. And these class cars have won lots of national and divisional events, as well as picking up their class win at big races, like Indy. Hey, those class wins are heads up. That should qualify as "competitive".

And, there have been, and still are, lots of competitive Pontiac powered bracket and index cars. But, maybe only heads up racing counts, as "competitive", since more driver skill is involved, in bracket and index.

There have also been quite a few Pontiac powered dirt cars that have won a lot of races. My Pontiac friend won over 50 features, plus countless heat races and trophy dashes, in a form of racing that sbc powered cars dominate. And he did it on a low budget. With enuff dollars, he would have been almost unbeatable on the dirt tracks in this area.

But hey, all this was just small time stuff compared to NASCAR, world class road racing, and the heads up Pro classes of drag racing. So, in those venues I suppose it has been since about the end of '63, since there was a competitive Pontiac. If this site has the correct info, Joe Weatherly won 3 NASCAR races and had several top 5 finishes, in Bud Moore's #8 Pontiac. His Pontiac also started from the poll position at 4 races. But, without Pontiac factory support, Bud switched to Mercury. Joe still managed to win his 2nd driver championship a row. And a Pontiac helped him do it, both years.

http://www.driveraverages.com/nascar...=98&yr_id=1963

[ponyakr]

Pontiac gave NASCAR another parting shot in '63, at Daytona. Paul Goldsmith embarrassed a field of sports cars, with a little '63 Tempest. This article says the 2nd place car finished about 5 miles back.

http://bangshift.com/bangshiftapex/t...t-sports-cars/

[Half-Inch Stud]

Pontiacs RULED in Smokey & the Bandit

a couple a times

[twooldgoats]

Originally Posted by Tom Vaught

....
Speaking of which, a single 697 CID Ford Mustang (Naturally Aspirated) at Milan is quicker than 99.5% of the Pontiacs out there running today.

That is all that needs to be said.

Tom V.

Yet you you keep going on and on.

Jim

[twooldgoats]

Originally Posted by 535 tall deck

and that 99.5% of Pontiacs are still faster than you

Actually, 100% of running Pontiacs are faster than him.

Jim