[Tom Vaught]

The Drawing is fine for the most part except that center of the starter shaft vs the center of the crankshaft dimension is slightly off.

Lowering the starter or moving the starter outward does not fix the issue.

You need to move the starter on the same angle as the factory starter angle (down slightly and out slightly) for the starter to mesh properly.

If the drawing was correct the starter would function properly, it does not.

Therefore Bruce's idea of welding on the starter mount after you position the starter at the correct downward angle will actually work pretty well. The drawing has been wrong for years because Tom W made a slight mistake in the Trigonometry when he created the drawing.

Tom V.

[charlie66]

Does anyone have a picture of one made and maybe even installed. Does the plate have 2 sets of holes. one for the trans and one for the engine. Sorry I just have no idea of the differences between the two......

Thanks

[Tom Vaught]

Charlie, I sent you a excel file with the block plate print and the correct location (a line drawn) on the file where the starter holes should go.

Tom V.

[BruceWilkie]

Charlie, S+W does do custom stuff and should be able to make one for you. 1 800 523 3353 http://www.swracecars.com/

The drawings above should help them.

Tell them to drill for BOP and Chevy pattern(in case you come across a tranny deal that has chev pattern). Use 61-64 Pontiac big car starter(3.25" pilot)(Butler sells an IMI mini starter for 61-64) or chevy inline six.(smaller pilot)
Pilot plate should be a snug fit to starter. The hole in mid plate can be a bit larger to allow positioning pilot plate for best starter to ring gear clearance. (I clamped mine and tapped with a hammer till I was in middle of clearance range then welded it to engine plate)

[charlie66]

Originally Posted by Tom Vaught

Charlie, I sent you a excel file with the block plate print and the correct location (a line drawn) on the file where the starter holes should go.

Tom V.

Thank you Tom..

[charlie66]

Originally Posted by BruceWilkie

Charlie, S+W does do custom stuff and should be able to make one for you. 1 800 523 3353 http://www.swracecars.com/

The drawings above should help them.

Tell them to drill for BOP and Chevy pattern(in case you come across a tranny deal that has chev pattern). Use 61-64 Pontiac big car starter(3.25" pilot)(Butler sells an IMI mini starter for 61-64) or chevy inline six.(smaller pilot)
Pilot plate should be a snug fit to starter. The hole in mid plate can be a bit larger to allow positioning pilot plate for best starter to ring gear clearance. (I clamped mine and tapped with a hammer till I was in middle of clearance range then welded it to engine plate)

Bruce , do you have any pictures of your setup?

Thank you for the number...

[charlie66]

Can you tell me how thick the adapter plate needs to be?

[charlie66]

Originally Posted by charlie66

Can you tell me how thick the adapter plate needs to be?

never mind about this last question . I see it now...

[BruceWilkie]

Originally Posted by Tom Vaught

The Drawing is fine for the most part except that center of the starter shaft vs the center of the crankshaft dimension is slightly off.

Lowering the starter or moving the starter outward does not fix the issue.

You need to move the starter on the same angle as the factory starter angle (down slightly and out slightly) for the starter to mesh properly.

If the drawing was correct the starter would function properly, it does not.

Therefore Bruce's idea of welding on the starter mount after you position the starter at the correct downward angle will actually work pretty well. The drawing has been wrong for years because Tom W made a slight mistake in the Trigonometry when he created the drawing.

Tom V.

Tom would you mind sharing the dimensions with the rest of us? I or Gavin may have carried his error over or I transposed a number. I will check Gavins print to see if he has radius of crank center to starter center distance same as my actual functional piece and that against my notes.

I do recall on initial piece I made, I used Tom W's print and the starter dimension didnt match. It may have been for a different ring gear.(Dont know. I scrapped that aluminum piece and started on a steel plate)(The 55-60 hydramatic bell I have mounts the starter further outboard so I suppose the early flywheel has larger ring gear)

Regardless, I took a 400 and standard starter and located/measured and found distance from vertical centerline of starter, distance from crank center to that line(horizontal), vertical distance from pan rail to starter center. This was with nominal pinion to ring gear clearance of .025"(.020"-.030" spec). with those dimensions you can determine radius of starter center to crank center and put starter center in normal location (or technically another location on that radius)

Keep in mind ring gear diameter is supposed to be 13.98 its not gauranteed exact, nor is every pinion gear exact, and for that matter probably starter center to pilot isnt perfectly same as another.
THAT is WHY I suggest block plate hole slightly larger than 3.25", pilot plate hole tight fit to starter and positioning starter and pilot plate with clamp and "tweaking" till pinion/ring gear clearance is in middle range of spec, then welding pilot plate to block plate.

Mine fits nice and I've tested it with both a TCI and stock flexplate. Its homely, I made it from a not so pretty plate. I'm making another from fresh clean plate also large enough to serve as a mid plate.

Charlie I'll try to find pictures I posted or find them on my PC and re-post them for you.

[charlie66]

Originally Posted by BruceWilkie

Tom would you mind sharing the dimensions with the rest of us? I or Gavin may have carried his error over or I transposed a number. I will check Gavins print to see if he has radius of crank center to starter center distance same as my actual functional piece and that against my notes.

I do recall on initial piece I made, I used Tom W's print and the starter dimension didnt match. It may have been for a different ring gear.(Dont know. I scrapped that aluminum piece and started on a steel plate)(The 55-60 hydramatic bell I have mounts the starter further outboard so I suppose the early flywheel has larger ring gear)

Regardless, I took a 400 and standard starter and located/measured and found distance from vertical centerline of starter, distance from crank center to that line(horizontal), vertical distance from pan rail to starter center. This was with nominal pinion to ring gear clearance of .025"(.020"-.030" spec). with those dimensions you can determine radius of starter center to crank center and put starter center in normal location (or technically another location on that radius)

Keep in mind ring gear diameter is supposed to be 13.98 its not gauranteed exact, nor is every pinion gear exact, and for that matter probably starter center to pilot isnt perfectly same as another.
THAT is WHY I suggest block plate hole slightly larger than 3.25", pilot plate hole tight fit to starter and positioning starter and pilot plate with clamp and "tweaking" till pinion/ring gear clearance is in middle range of spec, then welding pilot plate to block plate.

Mine fits nice and I've tested it with both a TCI and stock flexplate. Its homely, I made it from a not so pretty plate. I'm making another from fresh clean plate also large enough to serve as a mid plate.

Charlie I'll try to find pictures I posted or find them on my PC and re-post them for you.

Thank you Bruce , I appreciate it...

[BruceWilkie]

Charlie, here is my "ugly" plate in earlier version where I used a 55-60 starter with straight across bolt pattern. It worked but starter removal would have been a pia with engine/transmission in car as the upper starter mount bolt was tight under bell housing.(plus mount angle I used put solenoid lightly touching header tube)

I think the "Butler" 61-64 adapter plate(BTC-P010004) http://www.jbp-pontiac.com/products/...sion_comp.html could be modified to accomodate the early 55-60 bolt/dowel pattern. The starter pilot plate would need to be thinner as early block is deeper relative to flywheel mounting face of crank. You may also have to make sure plate clears convex portion of block along pan rail.(my pics sort of show my notching at rear pan rail so plate would sit flat)

[gavin]

At the moment I am on a island working but will back in Brisbane next week.I have very recently got my hands on a complete 316 and made up a plate to check against the engine.I have so far found three problems with the plate.One is the bottom two counter sunk holes need moving about 1/8" towards the passenger side.An other problem is the top two chev bell housing bolts need moving about 3/16" apart.The third thing is the notches at the pan rail to clear convex point on the block that bruce was talking about. I will up date the drawings as soon as I have time to check every thing works.Please keep looking at the drawings and between us we can fix all the gremlins.I have bolted the plate on and most of it looks good but will need to check starter as suggested.Please don't hold back if you see a problem its how we will get it right.I will post photos as soon as I get back.

[charlie66]

Originally Posted by gavin

At the moment I am on a island working but will back in Brisbane next week.I have very recently got my hands on a complete 316 and made up a plate to check against the engine.I have so far found three problems with the plate.One is the bottom two counter sunk holes need moving about 1/8" towards the passenger side.An other problem is the top two chev bell housing bolts need moving about 3/16" apart.The third thing is the notches at the pan rail to clear convex point on the block that bruce was talking about. I will up date the drawings as soon as I have time to check every thing works.Please keep looking at the drawings and between us we can fix all the gremlins.I have bolted the plate on and most of it looks good but will need to check starter as suggested.Please don't hold back if you see a problem its how we will get it right.I will post photos as soon as I get back.

Thank you!

[charlie66]

Originally Posted by BruceWilkie

Charlie, here is my "ugly" plate in earlier version where I used a 55-60 starter with straight across bolt pattern. It worked but starter removal would have been a pia with engine/transmission in car as the upper starter mount bolt was tight under bell housing.(plus mount angle I used put solenoid lightly touching header tube)

I think the "Butler" 61-64 adapter plate(BTC-P010004) http://www.jbp-pontiac.com/products/...sion_comp.html could be modified to accomodate the early 55-60 bolt/dowel pattern. The starter pilot plate would need to be thinner as early block is deeper relative to flywheel mounting face of crank. You may also have to make sure plate clears convex portion of block along pan rail.(my pics sort of show my notching at rear pan rail so plate would sit flat)

Bruce, Do they call this an adapter plate because of the starter provision or because the back of the block has a different bolt pattern for the trans then the newer blocks? My 1961 4 cylinder has the newer bolt pattern so the plate I made was just for the block was casted shorter then the 8 cyl. I thought the 61 V8 being the same year would be the same ...Can you tell me a little more about the differences between the 59 and the newer blocks.


Thanks....

[Tom Vaught]

Originally Posted by BruceWilkie

Tom would you mind sharing the dimensions with the rest of us? I or Gavin may have carried his error over or I transposed a number. I will check Gavins print to see if he has radius of crank center to starter center distance same as my actual functional piece and that against my notes.

Charlie I'll try to find pictures I posted or find them on my PC and re-post them for you.

I sent Charlie a copy of the marked up print (excel file) have him forward it to you.

Tom V.

[Bill Eveland]

Is this still fairly accurate?

[Tom Vaught]

Bill, if you look at the right side of the print, the right dowell pin hole is .6216"/.6226". That dimension is correct.

Directly below that dimension is a dimension specified at 4.565"/4.575". THAT DIMENSION IS WRONG (THE CORRECT DIMENSION SHOULD BE 4.1580" FROM THE RIGHT DOWELL PIN HOLE TO THE CENTER OF THE STARTER HOLE).

Below the plate is another dimension (from the LEFT DOWELL PIN HOLE to the CENTER OF THE STARTER) specified as 14.658"/14.662". THAT DIMENSION IS WRONG. The dimension should be 14.685".

Wilhite calculated the distance from the centerline of the crankshaft to the center of the starter as 7.234" (when the actual distance should have been 7.350" - 7.360" A MISTAKE OF ONLY .030" BUT ENOUGH TO SCREW UP THE STARTER ENGAGEMENT TO THE FLYWHEEL.

Some people try to move the bolt holes but you really need to move the STARTER CENTERLINE to the correct location and then things will line up properly and the starter will engage properly.

Tom Vaught

[BruceWilkie]

Charlie, 55-60 has a sqaurish pattern to it. the two top holes are close enough to use. Early blocks use 7/16" bolts vs say a 69 with 3/8" bolts. my 59 was not quite the samme center distance as the 69 was. I cant recall if i drilled tranny bolts to 15/32 or 31/64. The early block also has dowels in different location. Early 55--60 block sits back 1/4" apparently your 4 cylinder does too. Im pretty certain 61 up v8s dont.

Would you mind emailing me or texting me the excell file Tom sent you? Thanks

[johnta1]

Bruce does the crank need a spacer for the flexplate when using the block plate?

[BruceWilkie]

Originally Posted by johnta1

Bruce does the crank need a spacer for the flexplate when using the block plate?

not on the 55-60 block. The 55-60 bell face to face on crank(where flex plate bolts up) is @ 1/4" greater distance than newer blocks. Adapter makes up the difference.