[dci]

To get this subject back on track. I think we should break the four cycles down into their own categories. Intake, Compression, Ignition(combustion), Exhaust. All four of these events have a bearing on Torque / Horsepower out put. How do all the different events effect each other if at all? How can we make each of them better? How can one help the other? Can a normally aspirated engine consume more more air than it's actual cubic inch? These are just a few questions we need to ponder.

Let's start with the induction cycle. Ask questions even if you think they stupid. In my opinion there are no stupid questions. Some of us may be at different knowledge and skill levels than others and that's okay. My objective is to educate everyone and someone out of left field may have an idea that no one else has thought of yet. Our brains are amazing computers and if challenged will find a solution. Some times it just takes a different perspective.

[mike leech]

Originally Posted by dci

To get this subject back on track. I think we should break the four cycles down into their own categories. Intake, Compression, Ignition(combustion), Exhaust. All four of these events have a bearing on Torque / Horsepower out put. How do all the different events effect each other if at all? How can we make each of them better? How can one help the other? Can a normally aspirated engine consume more more air than it's actual cubic inch? These are just a few questions we need to ponder.

Let's start with the induction cycle. Ask questions even if you think they stupid. In my opinion there are no stupid questions. Some of us may be at different knowledge and skill levels than others and that's okay. My objective is to educate everyone and someone out of left field may have an idea that no one else has thought of yet. Our brains are amazing computers and if challenged will find a solution. Some times it just takes a different perspective.

Good post Don. Its always a challenge to find a way to fill the cylinder better. Unfortunately the truth is the guys who are finding ways to do it really dont want to share either due to hard fought lessons and info or ridicule from self professed genius know it alls that have only read a website or copied what they think someone else did. Then claim its just physics as if fact and never learn a damn thing.

Its sad but the public gets drug into beleiving the crap as if fact and waste money. A fella can make a lot more power than they think with good parts and a good plan.

For instance hows a small 400 cfm head make 1175 hp at 8500 rpm on a 564? Everybody thinks they know yet there's almost no one doing it.

[JSPONT]

Mike is right on with the nobody shares there hard work. I just got schooled by a local guy to me who has a wet flow bench. He asked me not to share his secretes. There were so many things that I did not realize mattered, and some that I thought were so important that were not. I was shocked that even valves matter a bunch even ones that are the same size.

[Stan Weiss]

Originally Posted by mike leech

Good post Don. Its always a challenge to find a way to fill the cylinder better. Unfortunately the truth is the guys who are finding ways to do it really dont want to share either due to hard fought lessons and info or ridicule from self professed genius know it alls that have only read a website or copied what they think someone else did. Then claim its just physics as if fact and never learn a damn thing.

Its sad but the public gets drug into beleiving the crap as if fact and waste money. A fella can make a lot more power than they think with good parts and a good plan.

For instance hows a small 400 cfm head make 1175 hp at 8500 rpm on a 564? Everybody thinks they know yet there's almost no one doing it.

Mike,
Everything has to follow the laws of physics. What happens is sometimes people try to use the wrong laws.

While I do look at the 400 cfm a little funny. The word small is what really gets my attention. Care to share the MCSA.

Stan

[Stan Weiss]

Originally Posted by dci

To get this subject back on track. I think we should break the four cycles down into their own categories. Intake, Compression, Ignition(combustion), Exhaust. All four of these events have a bearing on Torque / Horsepower out put. How do all the different events effect each other if at all? How can we make each of them better? How can one help the other? Can a normally aspirated engine consume more more air than it's actual cubic inch? These are just a few questions we need to ponder.

Let's start with the induction cycle. Ask questions even if you think they stupid. In my opinion there are no stupid questions. Some of us may be at different knowledge and skill levels than others and that's okay. My objective is to educate everyone and someone out of left field may have an idea that no one else has thought of yet. Our brains are amazing computers and if challenged will find a solution. Some times it just takes a different perspective.

Don,
I know it is a 4 cycle engine and you want to look at each of these cycles, but some of the important things happen during the overlap of cycles.

Stan

[mike leech]

Originally Posted by Stan Weiss

Mike,
Everything has to follow the laws of physics. What happens is sometimes people try to use the wrong laws.

While I do look at the 400 cfm a little funny. The word small is what really gets my attention. Care to share the MCSA.

Stan

Stan you guys simply cannot just claim physics to back up your claims. It's not physics when there's no proof that it works. Or that it won't work. Hypothesis at best. You guys claimed over and over again coatings make more power and it's just physics. Bull crap. That's what you guys claim every time you can't prove what you think. No offense to you Stan.

And yes I will share the minimal cross-sectional area. Let me figure what it is currently

[dci]

I agree that no one including myself is going to share hard earned info on how to get max power. All I'm asking is that we try and help bring some of the guy's at the lower level up to speed a little. I think that it will help guy's like myself, and other engine builders when it comes to explaining to a customer that may have a little better understanding why we need to do what we do. I spend almost as much time educating a guy on why a big port and big tube header will make more power as I do actually building the engine. I used to hold a class once a month in my old shop on engine theory and basics back when I had more time. When I first started the class I only had 3-5 guys a month until the word starting getting out.Then it started to grow every month until I couldn't hold the classes any more. I had about 100 guys coming a month and it was standing room only. My rent went up in that location and I had to move to a smaller building and didn't have the room any more to do it. What I found from having those classes was the complete opposite of what I anticipated. I thought that the guy's would get the knowledge to do their own thing and possibly buy parts or have machine work done by my shop. Instead I had guys dropping off engines to be built, cars to be tuned, and everything in between. So educating these guy's didn't create competition it created more higher end work. The reason was, they wanted it done right and were willing to pay me to do it for them even though I showed them how to do it themselves. So I guess the moral of the story here is educating is good, knowledge is great, and people are willing to pay to do it right. Kind of reminds me of a country song LOL.

[Tom Vaught]

Originally Posted by johnta1

Any real corroborating data on the wagon Cd and the GP Cd?

Anyone who has ever tested anything in a wind tunnel would agree with my post.

A SUV goes thru the air cleaner vs an open bed pick-up truck.

(For the simple minded, above, the SUV is like a 4 door wagon and the open bed pick-up truck is not that bad once the swirl in the bed is established and the air off the roof hits the swirl and flies over the tailgate (never reaching the bed floor).

A bed cover is better than the swirl / tailgate up, and a hard shell cover is better than a soft cover. A cargo net is the poorest performer as you get drag on the bed, (no swirl) and turbulence at the back of the vehicle.

Lots of data out there, John

Just ONE article out of thousands out there to support my comments: http://ecomodder.com/forum/showthrea...au-1494-2.html Ford has far more accurate data from their own personal wind tunnels but I will not share that.

Tom V.

ps John, you are a LAZY idiot just trying to stir up chit.

[johnta1]

A SUV goes thru the air cleaner vs an open bed pick-up truck.

Read the gawd damn question?



I want the Cd of the wagon and the GP.

I already knew the truck thing is better, in fact I use one.
If you don't know the answer, just shut up.
Don't go spewing really off-topic BS to try and muddle the topic.



PS, I do have the data for them and you are wrong, wrong, wrong.

[johnta1]

Unfortunately the truth is the guys who are finding ways to do it really dont want to share either due to hard fought lessons and info or ridicule from self professed genius know it alls that have only read a website or copied what they think someone else did. Then claim its just physics as if fact and never learn a damn thing.

Basically same answer for you.
If you don't know the answer, don't spout off useless BS, stick to facts or real data.

[JSPONT]

Originally Posted by Stan Weiss

Mike,
Everything has to follow the laws of physics. What happens is sometimes people try to use the wrong laws.

While I do look at the 400 cfm a little funny. The word small is what really gets my attention. Care to share the MCSA.

Stan

Stan, there is the law of physics, but the problem is when you take and intake and head with different textures, add it to a pump(engine) add a carb and fuel then air, swirl, spark, combustion chambers....... it would be impossible to really nail down exactly what is going on. With a flow bench you can watch air flow, add a wet flow bench then you realize there are so many factors involved it is mind boggling. Valve angles, valve shapes matter.
Physics will get you close but nothing like real world testing. Just like the texture issue in intake runners and heads, might not mean as much as you think when you add fuel to the air flow.
Don't get me wrong, Physics always give a good base, real world gets these top guys to the top.

[johnta1]

Forget the 'physics'.

Report the real world data.

For example, in your post you act like the textured heads won't work.

Any real world data?
(one way or the other)

[dci]

I'm not sure if JSPONT is saying does or does not make a difference, but I can tell you first hand it does. I have a Super Stock racer that picked up all through the rpm range with a certain texture in a simple place. I cannot divulge who it is and what he picked up, but it was very substantial.

[johnta1]

I agree 100%, but then you'll get the naysayers that say it won't work.

[mike leech]

Originally Posted by johnta1

I agree 100%, but then you'll get the naysayers that say it won't work.

You retard you are the naysayer. You think what you think is just as smart as what everybody actually does that actually does things.

Jeezzzz!!!!!!!!

Real world data is your damn coatings aren't worth anything. even the people that own coating companies don't coat their own pro stock and NASCAR engines. But it's physics right? Because you said so

[johnta1]

Real world data is your damn coatings aren't worth anything. even the people that own coding companies don't coat their own pro stock and NASCAR engines. But it's physics right? Because you said so

Got your panties in an uproar still?



Just because you can't make it work, doesn't mean it doesn't work?

[mike leech]

Lol

[JSPONT]

Originally Posted by dci

I'm not sure if JSPONT is saying does or does not make a difference, but I can tell you first hand it does. I have a Super Stock racer that picked up all through the rpm range with a certain texture in a simple place. I cannot divulge who it is and what he picked up, but it was very substantial.

It does work but it is a catch 22, there seem to be a threshold. My friends wet flow bench helped me but also confused me. It would be to long to explain and he might get upset. LOL the point being physics is helpful but real world is the best case after you get a good base. Then throw in a power adder and really make your head spin. I wish I was smarter or had a ton of money to test and tune all the time!!!!!!!

[mike leech]

Originally Posted by JSPONT

It does work but it is a catch 22, there seem to be a threshold. My friends wet flow bench helped me but also confused me. It would be to long to explain and he might get upset. LOL the point being physics is helpful but real world is the best case after you get a good base. Then throw in a power adder and really make your head spin. I wish I was smarter or had a ton of money to test and tune all the time!!!!!!!

You're on the right path.

[johnta1]

My friends wet flow bench helped me but also confused me. It would be to long to explain and he might get upset.

Does this mean no one ever put one on an engine and dyno'd or ran it to see if the results supported his views of it not working?