[bill ryder]

If you don't have the pics, here ya go. A world of knowledge here..... "Bill"!
First pic tells the story!!!

https://www.flickr.com/photos/134996...7655423885673/

[War eagle]

Mwriiter had trouble getting the alt belt to tighten on his ps car. My answer I will stick too. The pictures of a power steering cars indicate what I said. This IS to provide more clearance for the hot terminal, albeit does not touch with the 3/4 inch clearance when in the WRONG adjusted down position. The alt should be in the all the way up (inboard) and the belt is then adjusted with the ps pump. Notice that in a front collision, it would also be possible to push the hot terminal into the valve cover that could be serious if the alt is not in the up position. I have also included pictures of a non ps car to show that would be a different deal. I have tried to find evidence to support Bill`s position but I can not find any for him or Mr. X2. Just nothing there. Bill`s pictures have nothing to do with Mwritters power steering car.
Also the alt. inboard position is correct for V-8 cars with PS and A/C.
John V. notice the Trant/Wangers car has a T on it probably indicating the transistor ignition.

The picture credits:#1 Hot Rod Dec 63 (note how far inboard alt sits on this extremely early car)
#2 Car Craft Aug 64
#3 Car Craft March 64
#4 Motor Sport Jan 64
#5 Speed mechanics Nov.64

[bill ryder]

Some good pics. They back up my points. First, they show the 2 wire plug at 3 o'clock, which is necessary for my second point. Esp. in pic 3, the alt is almost all the way to the carb side of the adjuster. That is the BEST position. With the alt pivot at 6 o'clock and the adjuster bolt at 12 o'clock, that is the MAX height for the pulley, i.e. most contact. Anything farther to the dr. fender side just decreases the pulley height AND decreases the pulley contact area.
Definitely, one belt set up not that great!!!! "Bill"!
Lots of great detailing stuff in those Maroon 64 pics. I look at them weekly and still learn something new or different.......

[War eagle]

Originally Posted by bill ryder

You should NOT have to move the alt to the end of the strap to avoid the 12V lug to valve cover interference. The alt is clocked wrong. ..,.. "Bill"!

Bill. ....I guess I don't see the above backing up your points? You and X2 can`t have it both ways....

[John V.]

The clocking of the '64 37A alts should be same whether man steer or power steer, at least after the mid year PS belt revision since they both used the same alt (1100683).

This alt was used from the beginning on man steer Tempests. Would seem unlikely that they would have revised the clocking without changing the p/n over the course of the model year.

The early year PS alt (1100676) only differed by the fact it used a 2 groove pulley. If it was also clocked differently, I do not know.

The '65 37A alt was 1100729 early year then switched to the Olds version (1100704) later on. I don't know if they were both clocked the same.

This 1100729 was on ebay recently, can you tell how it is clocked?

I have a 1100683, dated 3J17, original to a man steer build based on how early it is dated (my own car is supposed to have the 1100676 but back before I knew much of anything, I bought the 1100683 as a dirty used piece on the advice of reference material at the time which proved wrong.

Anyway, if I understand clocking, when I view this alt from the rear, the plug terminal is to the right when the small lug is at the top (as it would be when mounted). 6 hrs. (180 deg) different from the clocking of that survivor alt.

I bought this alt about 20-25 years ago. No case markings to indicate it had been remanufactured, it appeared well worn. But I don't know where it was for the first 30 or so years since Delco first assembled it, so I won't swear that it is clocked as original.

What I find interesting is that the one I have has the extra boss provision on the end frame (rear case) for the mechanical tach drive that I first learned about and discussed within the older thread that I linked.

At the time I speculated that such a boss might indicate a reman unit using a "universal" end frame. Could be an indication that mine had been rebuilt (and reclocked) or else could mean I was wrong about that boss.

Just trying to offer full disclosure about my "evidence" and let you decide for yourself.

Back to Matt's issue.

Is his alt clocked at 12? Picture evidence from Bill & W.E. show '64 alts should be clocked at 3 when viewed from the front.

Bill I think I get your point. With ground as reference, the higher up you can get the alt pulley, the more the belt should wrap around it, more contact.

As the pulley drops in elevation, belt angle gets more shallow, decreasing contact.

Ignoring any possible interference issues at the rear of the alt, I don't think clocking changes what is going on up front with the pulley.

Belt tension for Matt's application comes from adjustment of the PS pump.

So it makes sense to me that you want the alt pulley elevation to be as high as possible wherever that point may be to get the most belt contact with the alt pulley. Lock the alt down and then adjust the PS pump to get the belt tension correct.

W.E., you confused me when you said the alt should be all the way up and then said "inboard". In my mind, inboard is closer to the car centerline. But I believe you meant all the way out on the strap slot, and AWAY from the car centerline. Correct me if I am misunderstanding.

Since the slot in the strap is the arc of a circle, the high point for that arc depends on whether the arc stops at or before 12 noon on the circle it is an arc of (awkward phrasing, but hopefully you are following).

If the arc goes beyond 12 noon, the pulley elevation will drop as you go past 12 noon.

That might make sense for the rear of case issue you are highlighting but it might result is less belt contact at the alt pulley.

The belt adjustment for the man steer cars like that survivor is very different. In that case, elevation of the alt pulley does not enter the equation. Belt tension is achieved by moving the alt away from the car centerline.

Belt wrap on the alt pulley is far better in that application vs. for the PS application.

[bill ryder]

John, I agree with all you stated. The only reason I brought up the clocking was the possible V/C interference if clocked incorrectly and the inability to get the alt adjusting bolt at its max contact position (12 o'clock) for belt contact.
That extra lug also comes into play with V/C interference. Has been discussed here before, also. "Bill"!

[War eagle]

John. Swing the alt as far toward the center of the car as one can.(inboard). Do it just as YOU see in the 5 pics I posted. John I think you are confusing a non P/S set up with a P/S car just as I suspect Bill and Mr. X2 did. In the Zazarine book, a 65 is pictured showing the method to adjust the alt and steering pump belt. The idea here has always been to help Matt figure out why movement thru the arc of the top strap does little to tighten the belt. He simply was not doing it correctly. There is very little out there regarding belt adjustment on the 64 with P/S. Yes it looks like Matt has the clocking wrong. This has nothing to do with proper adjustment with P/S in Matt`s case. In fact it sure is a safer position like the 65 upgrade. Again it has nothing to do with adjusting the alt. If you do not own a car with P/S, then I think its hard to see how different the 2 systems are. Just study the pics I posted and look at the non p/s car and the other 4 with.
I place little or NO value on current pictures of a 50 year old car that may or may not have the correct clocking without a hands on inspection. I have two 1100627 alts. My original and one I bought on ebay. Very close inspection shows tool marks on my originals case screws and the ebay one has absolutely none. Both are clocked correctly. I have always thought those screws with their shallow heads and seeming "loose" wrench fit, are tough to remove or install without leaving tool marks.

[John V.]

No, not confusing between the PS and man steer set-ups. I've never had a man steer car but it is hard to misunderstand how it would be adjusted.

I did misunderstand what you were saying about the location of the alt in the PS set-up.

Bill and Tom pointed out that the factory clocking for the '64 alt is 3 o'clock.

Matt has his alt almost all the way out AWAY from car centerline and I think Bill interpreted that he had done this to avoid valve cover interference due to his incorrect 12 o'clock alt clocking.

If interference was the reason, correcting the clocking would allow him to move the alt all the way toward the centerline just as you are recommending.

I misunderstood your initial post when you said you had the "alt fully up on the strap". Thought you were saying as far out away from centerline as possible.

When your next post said fully up was "inboard", I questioned it because in my mind I thought fully up was outboard. My mistake.

I could not really see the alt position in your pix (except for the man steer one which we agree is not relevant for Matt). I finally pulled out my '64 Shop Manual and also the pic from the C&D article and definitely now see that the alt is illustrated inboard on the strap.

IMO, this DOES agree with what Bill was explaining also and his point that with correct clocking Matt will be able to locate his alt all the way inboard on the slot without concern for valve cover interference.

I'm not sure what you misunderstood about Bill's comments but I now believe you are BOTH saying, move the alt toward the car centerline, putting it at the inboard end of the slot.

This is where the alt pulley will have its highest elevation and create the most amount of belt wrap.

Then adjust tension at the PS pump.

Not sure if Matt will need to reclock his alt to avoid the valve cover interference, seems like you may have been saying that 12 o'clock clocking may work better than the original factory 3 o'clock clocking.

Small matter, I think we all agree that Matt needs to move his alt toward car centerline at the inboard end of the alt strap slot to get the max. wrap of the belt on the alt pulley.

All this is true because the '64 AC set-up uses a single belt to drive the alt and PS pump.

One last point for guys with non-AC cars.

The early PS cars with the twin belts should be adjusted the same way because BOTH belts wrap both the alt pulley and the PS pump pulley.

But the later PS cars have separate belts for the alt and PS pump, so each one must be adjusted independently and in that case, the alt will need to move away from car centerline to achieve tension.

[War eagle]

Originally Posted by bill ryder

You should NOT have to move the alt to the end of the strap to avoid the 12V lug to valve cover interference. The alt is clocked wrong. 2 wire plug should be at 3 o'clock, pointing to the dr. fender, not 12 o'clock pointing up..,.. "Bill"!

John read the above. Bill first claims the alt should NOT have to move to the end of the strap..............then does a 180. Fairly obvious. The pictures I posted does not support his first claim as he suggests. He simply was in error and didn`t understand the mechanics of the P/S belt vs. non pwr/steering. Similar to your thinking the alt should be outboard. Maybe someone here can help blow up the pictures so you can see the correct location of the alt (very inboard) and UPPER STRAP SLOT. I have been wrong before too and simply admit it and welcome the correction. No ill will to Bill.

The change in 1965 configuration of the top strap and its components, allows for a greater adjustment of the belt using the top strap than in 64. (Matt and I agree that little belt tension can be applied using the 64 top strap) The incline of the 65 strap angle for the secondary part of the belt adjustment is in the Zazarrine book. The adjustment is to have the alternator fully inboard and bolt tight. The steering pump is adjusted to proper belt tension and then the upper strap alternator bolt is loosened to allow the alternator to move and adjust the belt as a secondary adjustment to correct tension called out at that location.

[Tom Vaught]

Some of the Alternators were clocked wrong as received from the factory (with Power Steering). My car was one of them.

If the alternator is clocked correctly on the rear (as regards the Hot Terminal being in the 3:00 Position and the "Two Wire Connector" Boss being at 12:00 position) then you can adjust the alternator inboard all the way to the end of the slot (shortest belt) or outward to the end of the slot (longest belt) without contacting the Valve Cover.

Ideal location would be at the middle of the slot (farthest away from the Crank Pulley) which actually pulls the belt around the Alternator Pulley.

My car had the alternator clocked wrong and an electrical short thru the aftermarket valve cover happened, a very expensive mistake in the 1966 timeframe.

If the clocking of the Power Terminal had been correct it never would have happened (even with aftermarket 1963 ribbed M/T Valve Covers).

So the Clocking Comment and the Upper Alternator Boss position in the Slot, I agree with. I have very little faith in the old magazine pictures as being correct, as many magazine cars were played with by Royal and other dealerships.

Tom V.

[War eagle]

Tom just go out and look at your car. TAKE SOME WRENCHES. If you have the correct alternator mount and power steering mount, it does not have any bearing on the length of the belt and the alt position in the upper strap slot. I have A/C and the strg brkt is quite different than the non A/C mount but the angles are the same as a non A/C unit. Until you actually move the alt in the slot, and find you are not gaining ANYTHING, you will not have a grasp of the situation. The orbit of the alt IS NOT MOVING like the orbit of the p/s pump. The short belt/long belt is totally wrong. It won`t make any difference. Your not seeing it. Your not getting it. The only way you can adjust for 2 different lengths of belts on a power steering car is move the power steering pump. Maybe with A/C is different but not according to a donor car I have with p/s only.

[Tom Vaught]

I have a single crank driven belt that drives the Water Pump and Alternator.
I have a second crank driven belt that drives the Water Pump and Power Steering.

Adjusting the Alternator Belt and the Alternator Position has NOTHING to do with the P/S Belt Length or P/S Position. The P/S adjusts separately vs the Alternator with a single groove alternator pulley system and a single groove P/S pulley system.

Do you think I have a Double Sheeve pulley on my Alternator??

Tom V.

I have the factory cast iron Alt/Power Steering 1964 Mount.

[War eagle]

Looked in the parts book.....no wonder nothing jives between owners.

A/C and P/S all V-8..................1 belt drives all pulleys and another drives A/C
1st type with P/S ....................1 belt drives all pulleys (This is actually the twin belt drive early design)
2nd type with P/S ...................2 belts. 1 drives wp,crank,alt. Another belt wp crank, p/s

The end game here is that if you do not have A/C then its hard to understand the drive system and then make comments.

[John V.]

Tom, as I well know, your non-AC '64 GTO was built with the 2nd design PS set-up.

I covered your situation in the last sentence of post #28.

W.E., there were TWO very different set-ups for the non-AC '64 Tempests with PS.

I mentioned both of them in post #28.

All of the '64 mag articles featured early built GTOs. In at least one of the pix W.E. posted, you can see the early style twin belt set-up used on the non-AC '64 Tempest V8 with PS.

The pic of the PS car in the C&D article also had the twin belt set-up, but Royal or somebody had removed the front belt, the picture shows only the rear belt in place.

The non-AC '64 Tempests with PS built after Feb 1 or so made use of the revised belt set-up such as the one Tom's GTO has.

The revision eliminated the use of the 37A 1100676 alternator with the 2 groove pulley.

Thereafter, the only 37A alt needed was the 1100683 with a 1 groove pulley, this alt was in use from the start of production for the non-AC manual steer V8 Tempests and after Feb also used for the non-AC PS V8 Tempests.

I have asked before for somebody to please explain the standard clocking nomenclature for alternators.

Do you describe the clocking while viewing the alt from the front or the rear?

Is the clocking described on the basis of where the 2 wire connector is located or where the Bat. terminal is located?

Since I do not know how they are supposed to be described, I have described the factory clocking of the '64 1100676 and 1100683 37A alts would put the 2 wire connector at 3 o'clock when viewing the alt from the FRONT with the shallow mounting hole at the TOP.

I do not know the factory clocking for the 1100627 55A alt which was standard with AC.

The 1100627 was first released for use in '62 and was a carryover to '63 and then '64 while the 37A alt p/ns were new for '64.

W.E., you say you have 2 of them, correctly clocked. Please describe the clocking, is it same as what I described for the '64 37A alts?

Tom, I'm a bit confused about how you described the correct clocking.

The layout of the Bat terminal, the 2 wire connector terminal, and the Ground terminal is such that I would not be able to describe the Bat terminal at 3 o'clock with the 2 wire terminal at 12 o'clock.

Seems to me, you should describe the 2 wire connector relative to the shallow top mounting hole, the Bat terminal will just be where it will be depending on where you clock the 2 wire connector.

You say your factory alt was clocked wrong.

But what you describe as correct, if you mean the 2 wire at 12 o'clock when viewed from the Front with the shallow mounting hole also at 12 o'clock, that does NOT match to factory '64 alts.

It may be BETTER with respect to clearance but it is NOT how they came from the factory.

So I'm guessing the one that shorted on you was clocked no differently than other '64 alts.

I'm sure I mentioned this when we previously discussed clocking, the Delcotron generically illustrated in the '64 Tempest Shop Manual shows the 2 wire connector at 12 o'clock with the shallow top mounting hole also at 12 o'clock.

The illustration in the MPC for the non-AC 1st and 2nd design PS set-up also seems to illustrate the alts clocked at 12.

But the reality seems to be that the actual '64 alts were clocked as I described above, at least the 37A alts. I do not know why.

If anybody has evidence that these alts were NOT clocked as I described them, please jump in with details.

[Tom Vaught]

You are correct John on all of your points we discussed.

The Alternator 2 Wire Connector was clocked at 9:00 and the Bat Terminal was clocked at 12:00 (viewed from the front) when I received the car. The Positive Terminal was close to the 63 M/T Ribbed Valve Covers I had installed along with M/T Roller Rocker Arms.

When I was on the other side of the world, My brother drove the car. Apparently he had the Alternator Belt break somehow, and a new belt was installed from a parts house.

My brother was not a mechanic therefore all he cared about was getting back on the road.

So somewhere in my brother's story, the alternator rubber boot wound up being jammed against the Ribbed Valve Cover (when the "mechanic" tightened the belt he had) and the rubber eventually failed, the + post shorted out against the valve cover, and the wiring system was destroyed. The car was towed back to our home and it sat until I returned.

I eventually had the car again towed to a Pontiac Dealer who replaced the entire wiring system. $$$$

The original sin was the clocking of the alternator. Maybe would have worked fine with the chrome factory valve covers but it did not work well with the M/T covers obviously when the slight clearance, (3/8") was removed. I screwed up not knowing how to reclock the alternator correctly.

Tom V.

[War eagle]

John the 4th picture I posted shows the alternator with a "B". I am sure that would have to be a 55 amp 627. I will try and get some pics of my alts in a few days.

[remy30006]

Does anybody know if the upper alternator brackets are different on a 64 v-8 AC power steering car? If so need to locate some.

[War eagle]

John do you know if ordering the HD battery option also triggers the 55 Amp alt.? The 55 amp alternator triggers the HD battery. Another interesting item from the 4th picture of the convertible, and since you own one, electric over hydraulic powers the top. Would a HD batt seem to warrant the 55 Amp set up? What does your build sheet say for Battery code? (and or alt)

[War eagle]

remy does it have trips? Also upper alt brackets? Do you mean the upper adjust strap?

[War eagle]

I guess I answered my own question. Code C on the manifest is the HD batt and is the std. GTO battery. I have a manifest with the C batt and a "U" Alt. U must be the 37 amp job. So the 55 amp alt is std with A/C and if one could order a 55 amp alt as an option they would also get the Delco 558 HD batt. The HD batt does not trigger the 55 amp alt.