[pfilean]

Just did an annual oil change. As usual the oil readings seem weird. Supposed to be 4+1. But with 5 quarts in the reading just gets to add mark. So maybe I'm getting more alzhiemers than I thought. Put in one more quart and it still just gets to the add mark. I've had this happen before. Wasn't supposed to be any 5+1 engines in 61 and this is a base A1 (no A/C) stock setup. Should be very simple. And I still haven't cranked it over to fill the filter. (Yeah - I know - I should have filled it before I screwed in on.)

The dip stick tube looks to be the correct height and bolts to the valve cover bolt. Not an extended A/C tube. I can't get a good length reading on it above the block anyway. My PO had the engine rebuilt at one time in what I'm sure was basically a Chevy machine shop. So I wonder if in the poorly organized machine shop they just stuck in any old Chevy dip stick.

So the question to someone with a 61 non A/C engine is - what is the length of your dipstick? Mine is 24 inches from the cap to the end. 21 1/2 inches to full and 22 1/8 to add. And yes, the tubes in the pan are correct. I checked that a few years ago when I pulled the engine to fix some oil leaks.

[lilabner]

Originally Posted by pfilean

Just did an annual oil change. As usual the oil readings seem weird. Supposed to be 4+1. But with 5 quarts in the reading just gets to add mark. So maybe I'm getting more alzhiemers than I thought. Put in one more quart and it still just gets to the add mark. I've had this happen before. Wasn't supposed to be any 5+1 engines in 61 and this is a base A1 (no A/C) stock setup. Should be very simple. And I still haven't cranked it over to fill the filter. (Yeah - I know - I should have filled it before I screwed in on.)

The dip stick tube looks to be the correct height and bolts to the valve cover bolt. Not an extended A/C tube. I can't get a good length reading on it above the block anyway. My PO had the engine rebuilt at one time in what I'm sure was basically a Chevy machine shop. So I wonder if in the poorly organized machine shop they just stuck in any old Chevy dip stick.

So the question to someone with a 61 non A/C engine is - what is the length of your dipstick? Mine is 24 inches from the cap to the end. 21 1/2 inches to full and 22 1/8 to add. And yes, the tubes in the pan are correct. I checked that a few years ago when I pulled the engine to fix some oil leaks.

Mine is the same as yours. A couple months ago I was reading the Craftsman Service News, and found a recommendation for a 421 HO that wanted you to put in an extra 1/2 Qt and make a new full mark on the stick. Reason was accelerating hard may cause a loss of pressure. When I fill mine I have the same problem you do, but when I fill to the full mark and go on a 40-50 mile run, the next morning I have some oil on the floor. Not a lot though. I am using a 2 piece seal too. If I run it just below the full mark, no or less oil..Being a Porsche mechanic I live with oil leaks, just don't like them.
My original engine was the same as yours. I added factory AC that I bought from Indiana Pontiacs, and he sent me the dipstick and tube also. But it was the same as I already had. Later I built a 63 421 HO engine and used the same pan and stick. The 63 pan had a cutout in it for the starter and I want to install it someday. There isn't much room even for a mini starter with Long Branch manifolds. I was afraid the 63 pan would not hold as much oil. When I do install it I will go to the one piece seal.

[lilabner]

Paul,
Look at the Service Craftsman News, July August 1963, page 41-42 for that oil info. The pans seem to all be the same except for the cutout in the 63 pan for the starter. Maybe that's why they want more oil in the engine.

Butch

[pfilean]

Thanks for the come back lil'abner.

The comment about the 63 pan got me thinking. As I look at the parts book 61 and 62 and are the same exc SD. Even the T/4. Then 63 gets another number exc 421 and HO which gets a different pan. Book doesn't mention capacity of each but at least there was a difference.

Then for the dip stick and tubes your comment that what Indiana Pontiacs sent you being the same as your non AC stick. Parts book seem to say that in 61 if you had AC and a 6 cyl compressor you got the same stick as a non-AC car. Different upper tube but the same stick. Then the 5 cyl compressors were different.

63 sticks were all Exc P/8 AC-421 and HO 4 qt reading. P/8 421 and HO got a 5 qt stick and P/8 AC got a different stick. Presumably longer but 4 qt reading.

But as you have the same stick as I do it they have been common and always in error. I suppose I will either have to remark the stick or cut a little off the top of the tube to get the stick to be accurate.

[lilabner]

Look on Frank's junk yard page.. He has a good picture of the 63 pan between a 61-62 pan and a 64 pan. You can see the starter cut away part and also how much smaller the bottom of the pan is. There is also a 63 oil splash plate.

[pfilean]

Interesting picture.

Unfortunately the only dip stick he listed that might be right was listed as sold. He said it would fit 59-65 but I wonder what length it really was. I guess I might still have to get out the tubing cutter before I again forget that mine reads wrong..

[ho421]

http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...d.php?t=796864

We had a similar thread going on this awhile back.

[lilabner]

Looks to me like the AC stick is longer, but only the part above the cap. Length to marks seem to be the same. I think the tube is the same length but the attachment to the VC is longer.

[Engine-Ear]

Originally Posted by lilabner

Look on Frank's junk yard page.. He has a good picture of the 63 pan between a 61-62 pan and a 64 pan. You can see the starter cut away part and also how much smaller the bottom of the pan is. There is also a 63 oil splash plate.

...as in, http://frankspontiacparts.com/ ?

[lilabner]

exactly, thank you..

[pfilean]

Yeah - that's where I found it also. Interesting about the 63 pan with the depression. Don't know which one that is. In 63 the 421 and HO got pan 9770128 and everything else (probably the 4 qt pans) got 541624. They also got different dipsticks but with the same upper tube (which is the same upper tube for most applications through 65.)

I'm still puzzled at what I have for dipstick. I siphoned the 6th quart out of my pan. With that small tube down the dipstick tube it was one drip at a time so very slow. But it only dropped the level on the dip stick about 1/8-3/16 inch. I suppose that at that level the oil is above the real deep part of the pan and up where it flows out in the long area to the front.

And as most applications use that same upper tube from maybe 59-65 the oil level will be measured as the stick length from the little bell cap to the Add/Full marks on the stick and not by the actual overall length of the dipstick. I still don't know what others dipsticks measure to that point.

I guess I'll just cut a bit off my upper tube to get the oil to measure correctly. Mine looks about like the pictures others have posted but with maybe a little more bend. It's hard to tell with that bend just how long it is in the pictures. And I'm not sure that an extra quart if oil would be a problem anyway. You are not supposed to overfill to prevent frothing up the oil. But in 64 everything got the same pan and upper tube. 389, 421, HO and GTO all got the same pan and upper tube but the 421, HO and GTO (which were to get 5+1 of oil) got a different dipstick. to measure the difference. So just one more quart must not be enough to cause the frothing.

[lilabner]

When I bought my 63 pan from Frank I didn't know there were two for street engines. I just asked for a 63 pan and baffle, oil tube and stick. I built my 421 engine with that pan, and long branch headers. I was using a mini starter also. Everything fit just right, but the rear rope seal leaked. I thought I was good with them because when working for Holman Moody and 427's I never had one leak. Of course that would be in 1970, 43 years earlier. Now I just do Porsches. So I got a two piece seal from BOP and took a closer look at the oil pans and decided to use my 61 pan because it held more oil. Now after it's in the car, all hooked up I put the starter in. Doesn't fit too well. I had to re-index it by drilling a new hole between two other holes. But the long outside assembly bolt now hits the exhaust pipe flange. I had to grind a notch in it for clearance. No problems since, but I still want to put the 63 pan back on some day.

[pfilean]

Does seem strange that you would have clearance problems with a mini starter. They are usually small enough to get clearance if it is one that can be clocked to get acceptable solenoid clearance. But the long branch do bring in other considerations.

I don't really know why some 63 pans got the depression or bulge, whichever it is. Maybe that was a way of adding the extra quart volume below the starter. But there is so much similarity in starter size it's hard to see why that should be a problem. For 61-64 there was a low compression starter 1107791 and a high compression starter 11407781. Although they did get different armatures and field coils to get different torque ratings they would be the same diameter as they both got the same commutator end frame.

However there is a separate listing for 61-63 SD. Starter 1107206. But the parts book doesn't list the armatures or coils separately for this starter so presumably they were not serviced. The parts book listing for the commutator end is not very specific but implies it could work for the 1107206 starter. Meaning it would also be the same diameter. So why the 63 bulge? As the starter and pan for 61 and 62 SD are the same then the only difference in 63 becomes the oil volume. Which should mean that the 63 bulge pan was the one for 421 and SD.