[65nss4spdGTO]

Originally Posted by Stan Weiss

Calvin,
SS/AM is a different animal than what Jason was talking about needing more cis for. What is the deck height on the short block you have / had? How low could it be milled? Would it take a small main (2.5" or less) journal crank?

I've had two short decks, the first was a 9.750" aluminum IA-II block, standard mains, oversize cam and lifter bores in the OEM location. I sold this block when I could get the iron block.

The second is the iron IA-II meausres 9.500" with standard mains. I'm being told it will go to 9.250", I've yet to get into this project and it sits in the corner.

I know of at least 1- KRE AL block that was made with smaller mains, standard height block.

If we use 500ci (AKA NHRA PS) as a target for CI, decks sub 9.500" can be of benefit, but also comes with other issues when looking at the block. It's not a purpose built block for a 500CFM cylinder head. Mains, lifter bore and cam location are not optimized.

IMO, the best approach for building a motor like Jason wants is to build the motor with a much higher HP target and just dont' RPM the motor as high. Someone wants to make 1000 HP @ 7000 RPM, how much power would that engine need to make at peak? We are bore size limited, that make us valve size limted, cubic inch limited and so on. BBC have the ability in block and head design to accomplish those goals, the approach in using a Pontiac has to change. More compression, more cylinder head, more cam, intake and so on. Running the engine 700-1000 RPM below peak will improve the life of the engine.

Can you run numbers on a 500ci engine making 1000HP @7000 RPM?

Calvin Hill
Hill Performance
708-250-7420

[Stan Weiss]

Originally Posted by 65nss4spdGTO

I've had two short decks, the first was a 9.750" aluminum IA-II block, standard mains, oversize cam and lifter bores in the OEM location. I sold this block when I could get the iron block.

The second is the iron IA-II meausres 9.500" with standard mains. I'm being told it will go to 9.250", I've yet to get into this project and it sits in the corner.

I know of at least 1- KRE AL block that was made with smaller mains, standard height block.

If we use 500ci (AKA NHRA PS) as a target for CI, decks sub 9.500" can be of benefit, but also comes with other issues when looking at the block. It's not a purpose built block for a 500CFM cylinder head. Mains, lifter bore and cam location are not optimized.

IMO, the best approach for building a motor like Jason wants is to build the motor with a much higher HP target and just dont' RPM the motor as high. Someone wants to make 1000 HP @ 7000 RPM, how much power would that engine need to make at peak? We are bore size limited, that make us valve size limted, cubic inch limited and so on. BBC have the ability in block and head design to accomplish those goals, the approach in using a Pontiac has to change. More compression, more cylinder head, more cam, intake and so on. Running the engine 700-1000 RPM below peak will improve the life of the engine.

Can you run numbers on a 500ci engine making 1000HP @7000 RPM?

Calvin Hill
Hill Performance
708-250-7420

Calvin,
I am not sure what numbers you want.

500 ci - 1000 HP @ 7000 RPM - .443 BSFC - 13.0:1 A/F would need 124.15% VE.

Stan

[gene simmons]

Originally Posted by slowbird

Imo once you start going that route with all that custom stuff just buy what's already out there and put Pontiac on the valve cover.
99.9% of Pontiac guys are way to cheap to even utilize what we currently have to it's full extent.

X2
And there you have it!

[opeliac]

Originally Posted by Dragncar

As long as some of the parts, withing reason its still a Pontiac. People who think it ALL has to be the same as original, need to GET OUT of the race section.

That kind of thinking holds us back.

The huge BBC and BBF stuff is "based" on the originals, good enough.

If it retains the original front cover design, as well as oil filter location, it can be considered to be a custom Pontiac piece...

[slowbird]

Originally Posted by opeliac

If it retains the original front cover design, as well as oil filter location, it can be considered to be a custom Pontiac piece...

No one going that route would run a front cover, they'd run a timing belt.

[opeliac]

Originally Posted by slowbird

No one going that route would run a front cover, they'd run a timing belt.

So if you cant bolt an original front cover onto it...What is there that would truly make it a Pontiac?

[slowbird]

Originally Posted by opeliac

So if you cant bolt an original front cover onto it...What is there that would truly make it a Pontiac?

Nothing, that's why you put Pontiac on the valve covers and go with it.

[wreckmastr]

Originally Posted by slowbird

99.9% of Pontiac guys are way to cheap to even utilize what we currently have to it's full extent.

Most accurate statement in the whole thread!
If you want cheap and easy go build a Chevy.

[Stan Weiss]

Originally Posted by slowbird

No one going that route would run a front cover, they'd run a timing belt.

They are 2 totally separate things. Since this is the race section. What percentage of people running an after market Pontiac block do you think still use a timing cover? But don't those blocks still retains the original front cover design?

Stan

[Stan Weiss]

Originally Posted by 65nss4spdGTO

I've had two short decks, the first was a 9.750" aluminum IA-II block, standard mains, oversize cam and lifter bores in the OEM location. I sold this block when I could get the iron block.

The second is the iron IA-II meausres 9.500" with standard mains. I'm being told it will go to 9.250", I've yet to get into this project and it sits in the corner.

I know of at least 1- KRE AL block that was made with smaller mains, standard height block.

If we use 500ci (AKA NHRA PS) as a target for CI, decks sub 9.500" can be of benefit, but also comes with other issues when looking at the block. It's not a purpose built block for a 500CFM cylinder head. Mains, lifter bore and cam location are not optimized.

IMO, the best approach for building a motor like Jason wants is to build the motor with a much higher HP target and just dont' RPM the motor as high. Someone wants to make 1000 HP @ 7000 RPM, how much power would that engine need to make at peak? We are bore size limited, that make us valve size limted, cubic inch limited and so on. BBC have the ability in block and head design to accomplish those goals, the approach in using a Pontiac has to change. More compression, more cylinder head, more cam, intake and so on. Running the engine 700-1000 RPM below peak will improve the life of the engine.

Can you run numbers on a 500ci engine making 1000HP @7000 RPM?

Calvin Hill
Hill Performance
708-250-7420

Calvin,
Didn't someone at one time sell a spacer kit to use a crank with a reduced main journal size?

Stan

[Tom Vaught]

Do not know about selling a spacer for the block but Bob and Frank's Engine Masters engine (built by the Ford Guy)
had a 2.750" FORD main bearing size.
They also had special main caps for the block (I was told) but that might be hearsay and they used pinned spacers at
both locations. The smaller main cap bearing register would make sure the block spacer would never move.

Tom V.

[opeliac]

Originally Posted by slowbird

Nothing, that's why you put Pontiac on the valve covers and go with it.

LOL

[7T2]

Originally Posted by Tom Vaught

Do not know about selling a spacer for the block but Bob and Frank's Engine Masters engine (built by the Ford Guy) had a 2.750" FORD main bearing size.
Tom V.

if youre referring to kaase's emc motor-
he used the 340 mopar 2.5" main setup. thrust width is slightly under the 3" pontiac main

[Tom Vaught]

Thanks for the correction Jim. Yes, I was referring to John Kaase's EMC Engine
Great info to know about the 340 Thrust Bearing. Always assumed John had put a 351 C bearing in the engine.
Since you know about that engine did they run one (and custom main caps or two spacers (upper and lower)
and IA-2 main caps ?

Tom V.

[65nss4spdGTO]

Originally Posted by Stan Weiss

Calvin,
Didn't someone at one time sell a spacer kit to use a crank with a reduced main journal size?

Stan

I don't see the main size as being the issue, there are ways around that and most high end cranks are custom units from Crower or Bryant,

Calvin Hill
Hill Performance
708-250-7420

[Dragncar]

Originally Posted by 65nss4spdGTO

This coming from a guy who has never had a set of aluminum heads in his car? Btw, I'm not taking a shot at you, just pointing out most Pontiac racers won't spend the needed money to go to a high level. Some have complained if a standard Pontiac valve cover won't fit, it's not a true Pontiac. Spreading the bore space to gain a few more cubic inches still won't put Pontiacs in the same league as other brands. Everything on an engine like that will be a custom piece. Go read Langers response again to the issues Pontiac has to compete with other brands.

NHRA SS/AM runs at 8.50 lbs per CI. Assuming Langers engine is 565ci would put him at 4800lbs. I believe the record is around 7.95. Need I say more?

Calvin Hill
Hill Performance
708-250-7420

I would call that a dig. And not even a backhanded compliment either. I have two sets of aluminum head BTW. One is about to be sold to pay for a chunk of the IA2A.
And yes I read Langers response, it was to a question asked by me.

[Dragncar]

If someone made a Pontiac block that was longer, the length of a BBC and Tiger style heads were made to fit, I would call it a Pontiac race block. Even if it used a BBC crank.
Not into the idea of a BBC style head on it either. We already have that with the Warp and I dont care for them.
I understand it still would not be quite the BBC level, but dont care. Might as well use a BBC at that point.
A big ol Tiger style head would have tons of flow and more room to do things. It would be great beating them with inline heads and watching them scratch their own heads.

[chiefbigb]

Why don't you make this block? I'm certain All Pontiac could put you in touch with the people that could do it. This reminds me of the people wanting a 2000.00 dollar replacment block because the others available are to expensive. Race sruff is expensive. Pontiac race stuff is more expensive. Pontiac had pro stock heads on BBC engines years ago. Was that a Pontiac engine? Based on some people's opinions I would say yes. So get one of those and retro valve covers and front cover. Walla basest pontiac engine around. The next level is different for everyone's programs. If you need a one off block to get there then move that direction. Very few people would purchase these parts. It's not cost effective from a.business stand point.

[GTO Dan]

Originally Posted by Stan Weiss

Calvin,
Didn't someone at one time sell a spacer kit to use a crank with a reduced main journal size?

Stan

Pontiac Dude

[Tom Vaught]

Originally Posted by chiefbigb

Pontiac had pro stock heads on BBC engines years ago. Was that a Pontiac engine? Based on some people's opinions I would say yes. So get one of those and retro valve covers and front cover. Walla basest pontiac engine around. The next level is different for everyone's programs.

John Clegg campaigns one of those engines in a firebird that he races 9out of Texas).
Short Stroke deal (like 3.3" stroke range) with a 4.5" bore range piston (not going to give away his actual numbers), Pontiac Part Number BB Chevy Cast Aluminum Heads, etc,etc.

Lots of $$$$$ spent on that deal but was a champion recently in the class he runs, I believe.

Most do not have access to Clegg's money or racing background. They own one of the old HO RACING Trans Am race cars.

So it is possible to run a chevy engine as a Pontiac Part Number engine legally in racing classes but in reality except for the part number it is a custom chevy engine.

Tom V.