[NeighborsComplaint]

It's a hobby. not an investment. You have to think of it like building a bookshelf. You get all done building it from the finest oak with a hand rubbed oil finish but when it comes time to get rid of it, the next guy says "I can go to Ikea and buy a bookshelf for $100."

You are probably going to drop $50K on this car of yours and you will be lucky to get half that back if you were to sell it. With a GTO, your % of return will be higher but you'll still take a beating. The other thing is that you're building it for you. The next guy that comes along may not care for your spin on your own car. The reality is it's just a very expensive hobby and don't think of it as an investment. You build what and how you can afford to build.

The best way is to buy a finished car and let the builder take the beating. If you are a hobbyist like me, I can wrench but I am not a body man or painter. I bought my GTO a long time ago but the principle is the same ... I found a car that was nice looking with a blown motor that the owner had given up on after a succession of spun rod bearings. After an initial shoestring rebuild, I drove the car for many years as-purchased (just replaced carpets and did some rattle can detailing under the hood). While I eventually freshened up the paint with a $900 Maaco respary (it was painted around 1985 and I bought it in 1989) I got many years of use out of the car, driving it and attending local shows and cruise nights over the years as I made incremental improvements to the body and interior.

I feel like I have spent a butt-load of money on the car in the past 5 years. In total I probably have around $25K in the car including the Initial shoe-string motor rebuild , a second proper rebuild incl new heads (both motors assembled and installed by me), the $900 respray. a second $5000 paint job (body stripped to bare metal/vinyl top left on) about 5 years ago, all new interior (seats recovered, new door panels, new steering wheel, new console, new dash panel) trans and diff rebuild, torque convertor rebuild and re-stall, new suspension w. tubular control arms F&R, springs, gas shocks and HD sway bars, front end rebuild, new custom driveshaft (car had a long tail TH400 in it and a bent driveshaft) aluminum radiator, water pump, shroud and clutch fan, alternator, Grand Cherokee steering box conversion, high torque starter, ceramic headers, new gas tank and lines, new exhaust, 4 wheel disc conversion with master and booster and wheels and tires. I did all the mechanical work myself with the exception of the trans, diff and convertor rebuilds (did the R&R) and the exhaust (I am older but smarter and know they never fit). Most recently, I put it in the paint shop to repair a rusted rear-window filler panel, repaint both rear quarters (flaws in the prior paint/metal work) and install a new vinyl top. I am guessing around $2,500 for this latest adventure.

You can't look at these cars as a substitute for an IRA unless you happened to have stumbled on an SD, RA-IV or HO at the right time and the right place.

[HWYSTR455]

Originally Posted by 455GRIN

If it makes you feel any better, I'm messing with a 1980 Firebird Esprit that I got free. Originally had a V-6, and a straight body. Ended up painting myself and dumped my old 455 in it. Building for me to have fun with and learn some body and paint skills. But it ain't free no more. Just don't over build it, get back on the road and enjoy it.

Most of the non-car people will think its cool to see such an old car cruising around, they don't care of its a GTO.

Yup, just like old 4 doors. They are cool and don't have to be fast. Wagons too.

.

[dataway]

I wont' have any where near 50K in mine (not including my labor, since that is a recreation). I bought the car 40 years ago for $1100, drove if for 6 years .... so ahead of the game already there. Chassis is done, engine 90% done, have about $8K cash into it now, another $10K finishes it easily. Frame off, done at my own shop. I'm a welder/fabricator, 90% of the parts, restored in my own shop in my spare time. Car was 90% complete to begin with. Will be painted by a good friend for probably $3K with a good, OEM style SS paint job. 90% all original to the vehicle parts, the rest OEM or restored used OEM, about
3% reproduction parts.

Not sure about other people doing restorations but I have the shop capabilities to do all painting except exterior body, all the welding, all the restoration except technical stuff like carbs, alternators etc. Only thing sub'ed out so far was the engine machine work.

Body is excellent .... if you added together all the rust on car it would be the size of two dollar bills, no bondo, no previous repairs. Final paint and Endura/Hideaway work will be 70% of the rest of the budget.

So ... I'll be fine and not lose a dime.
Just because one person loses a bundle, doesn't mean everyone does. I've restored vintage motorcycles for 40 years, fairly familiar with the process.

And no I don't include my labor in the cost, just like I wouldn't include time I spend playing the guitar or video games.

[Formulajones]

Similar situation here. Only thing I sub out is engine machine work. Everything else is done in house here by me, including paint and body, interior, engine, trans and rearend rebuilding etc.. So what ever materials and parts cost, including the cost of the car is pretty much my investment.
Like Dataway, my time doesn't count because on my own personal cars I consider it a hobby that I enjoy doing. I do however make a living at it, in which case I charge labor when doing customer work.

I've never lost money on a car sale, but the reasons stated above are mainly why. Another is that most everything we have here we've bought 20-30 years ago when prices were much cheaper. I hang onto things a loooong time and rarely do I sell anything.

[NeighborsComplaint]

Originally Posted by dataway

Chassis is done, engine 90% done, have about $8K cash into it now, another $10K finishes it easily.

I spent $6500.00 in parts alone for suspension, disc brake conversion, steering box. center link, toe rod ends, pitman and idler arms, parts, water pump, radiator, belts and hoses. intake, air cleaner, valve covers, tune up parts, trans cooler, radiator shroud, fan and clutch and brake lines. I installed all the parts. All machine work and parts for my motor came to around $1500.

In total, we are not that far off. Add $5,000 for my current paint, around $1500 for the interior, $450 for a new vinyl top, $250 for new stainless mouldings, $500 for a rear bumper and tail lights, $1500 for wheels and tires, $1500 to rebuild the trans, convertor and rear end plus the $3500 I paid for the car and you got $20,800. Add in $1,000 for miscellaneous stuff (wiper arms, motor and linkage, seat belts, sun visors, rear view mirror, shifter and console and other miscellaneous trim items.

Now that's if you only did things once, but over 38 years of ownership, you do things over multiple times so add my initial engine rebuild, Maaco paint, wheels and tires. a new deck lid and re-do of my rear quarters and you are right at $25K on a car that was always drivable.

The OP has a shell he is sending to AMD for back half rear sheet metal repairs, a bare block (must purchase parts to build), no usable trans and no usable rear end. He has old OEM suspension and brakes with a recent front disc conversion, needs a full interior trim out, complete body work and paint, bumper restoration and has chosen to build along the lines of a pro-touring car with a high-horsepower fuel-injected 455 stroker, 5-6 speed trans, Ford 9" rear, trick suspension and state of the art cooling.

I do not know how complete his car is at present or the condition of his glass and trim, but suffice to say that it is a 1 year only car and replacement parts carry a premium.

[Nicks67GTO]

-Its not an investment. It's a hobby that leaves an asset.....

- That is unless you're fool enough to take loans on it or rack up credit card bills, then it's a liability and a hobby should NEVER be a liability.

-Who gives 2 ****s what anyone else is saying about what you decided to build. It's what was available and pickins are getting slim. I personally dig a 64 Tempest.

-Any of you guys that are concerned with "value" better sell now. Theres a collapse of "value" coming as boomers die off, hoards come out of barns and theres fewer people who want them. Reality check. Milennials don't care about your hotrod. I'm 35 and virtually no one a few years behind me care a single bit about them. Couple that with new z28s and GT350s that would dust your stock Musclecar for less than the cost of most good restorations and in another 10-15 years you can kiss your value goodbye. You should be building for the love of it.

-Who cares who cuts up what. Later this spring im going to be doing a Silversport T56 Magnum install thread. That's going to require me cutting the unmolested and perfect Freemont California built floors of my 1967 GTO HO car. Yes I have the numbers matching stuff too. I'm done caring about any of that stuff for that reason in point 4 above.

-Build it because you love it. Not because you intend to sell for a profit....because you're not going even come close to breaking even. It's a giant moneypit. A loud, beautiful, unique, stylish, stone cold badass moneypit.

[Jerry H.]

I bought my first GTO to restore in 1979 and have lost count at the number of GTO's and other Pontiacs I've purchased over the past nearly 40 years. Probably close to 50 or so. I never bought one as an investment, but I did expect to be able to come out ahead when and if the time came to sell. I was always able to buy a restorable car, do a lot of the work myself, and come out ahead when I sold it. In the past few years I found that I couldn't afford to buy anything that needed body and paint work or major mechanical work. And now that I can't do very much work at all I've realized that if I ever desire to own another Pontiac it will have to be already done. That's the only way you can come close to staying above water nowadays is to buy one already done. Buy the best you can afford!

[MUSLCAH]

Scuff and Shoot.......love it when people come into the shop looking for that Option.....lol....or they say " it don't have to be perfect" .....watch out for those people.

[dataway]

My next Pontiac will be a low value, driver .... Lemans or something. Needing just enough work to make me feel good about myself. But then .... it's so hard to just walk away from that rusty part that still works .... might be better with just a bit of paint, or maybe I should take it off and blast it and paint, or maybe go to napa and buy a new part, or maybe find an NOS one .... and there you are ... in the mess again.

[RocktimusPryme]

Originally Posted by MUSLCAH

Scuff and Shoot.......love it when people come into the shop looking for that Option.....lol....or they say " it don't have to be perfect" .....watch out for those people.

If I were going to go that route I think I would do it myself. I’m under no illusions that I could churn out a chip foose paint job. But if I had a cheap car that was otherwise straight and just wanted a 20 footer quality paint job. I’m convinced me and Eastwood could pull it off. In fact it’s something I want to try on a cheap 240z or something.

[64speed]

Originally Posted by NeighborsComplaint

It's a hobby. not an investment. You have to think of it like building a bookshelf. You get all done building it from the finest oak with a hand rubbed oil finish but when it comes time to get rid of it, the next guy says "I can go to Ikea and buy a bookshelf for $100."

You are probably going to drop $50K on this car of yours and you will be lucky to get half that back if you were to sell it. With a GTO, your % of return will be higher but you'll still take a beating. The other thing is that you're building it for you. The next guy that comes along may not care for your spin on your own car. The reality is it's just a very expensive hobby and don't think of it as an investment. You build what and how you can afford to build.

The best way is to buy a finished car and let the builder take the beating. If you are a hobbyist like me, I can wrench but I am not a body man or painter. I bought my GTO a long time ago but the principle is the same ... I found a car that was nice looking with a blown motor that the owner had given up on after a succession of spun rod bearings. After an initial shoestring rebuild, I drove the car for many years as-purchased (just replaced carpets and did some rattle can detailing under the hood). While I eventually freshened up the paint with a $900 Maaco respary (it was painted around 1985 and I bought it in 1989) I got many years of use out of the car, driving it and attending local shows and cruise nights over the years as I made incremental improvements to the body and interior.

I feel like I have spent a butt-load of money on the car in the past 5 years. In total I probably have around $25K in the car including the Initial shoe-string motor rebuild , a second proper rebuild incl new heads (both motors assembled and installed by me), the $900 respray. a second $5000 paint job (body stripped to bare metal/vinyl top left on) about 5 years ago, all new interior (seats recovered, new door panels, new steering wheel, new console, new dash panel) trans and diff rebuild, torque convertor rebuild and re-stall, new suspension w. tubular control arms F&R, springs, gas shocks and HD sway bars, front end rebuild, new custom driveshaft (car had a long tail TH400 in it and a bent driveshaft) aluminum radiator, water pump, shroud and clutch fan, alternator, Grand Cherokee steering box conversion, high torque starter, ceramic headers, new gas tank and lines, new exhaust, 4 wheel disc conversion with master and booster and wheels and tires. I did all the mechanical work myself with the exception of the trans, diff and convertor rebuilds (did the R&R) and the exhaust (I am older but smarter and know they never fit). Most recently, I put it in the paint shop to repair a rusted rear-window filler panel, repaint both rear quarters (flaws in the prior paint/metal work) and install a new vinyl top. I am guessing around $2,500 for this latest adventure.

You can't look at these cars as a substitute for an IRA unless you happened to have stumbled on an SD, RA-IV or HO at the right time and the right place.

I think neighborscomplaint gets me most of all. Although his description of my car is a little flattering it is true that I am spending a ton in bodywork and paint and chrome. Rome wasn’t built in a day. This is a 3 year minimum project with more like 4 or 5 (hell maybe 6 who knows) years invested. It won’t be pro touring though it will have some tubular suspension and bigger wheels and tires. It won’t be a drag car but it’s gonna have a hell of a 467 in it. I went on power tour as a long hauler a while back and while the Foose cars get people’s attention for a while the cars people keep coming back over too are the ones that are just simply well done. Nothing over the top. No fastback roofline conversion or 1500 hp motor that you end up seeing the GM motor medics under on the side of the road but the cars that are just well done. No detail neglected so to speak. The first time I saw a original radio converted to Bluetooth was in a 60s caddy. Chrome was a little pitted but this guy was jamming out on his iPod with a caddy radio. I decided then my next car would have that! It’s the little things to me that make the car like the tach in the dash instead of hose clamped to the column. A manual to automatic conversion that doesn’t leave a dead pedal and a big honking shifter on the floor. You know detail! I know it costs but that’s what I’m shooting for and I’m doing it in a tempest that had a zero dollar initial investment. That would have never happened to a GTO in any condition. I was a police officer and I can say unequivocally that it’s cheaper to have a drug habit than a car habit. The only difference is you might end up with something to show for one and if you lose your house it will be for different reasons LOL. I never meant to imply that I was retiring off this car I was merely stating I get my balls busted for doing a tempest and I don’t think it matters. If my vision comes true it’ll be my car you see on the side page of the hot rod power tour issue with the a$$ end hung out.

[HWYSTR455]

Don't get hung up on recognition, the 'trade rags' are like F*Xnews, fake, twisted by manufacturers and lean towards the big 3. The majority of the BOP and AMX musclecars only get coverage in the off-shoot mags, ones that are supported by groups that specifically cater to those (dead) brands. Sad but true. The ones that do get coverage are the ones that are given an LS, late hemi, or late 5.0 swap.

If I see another 69 Camaro on the cover of a mag I will puke. No imagination.

I bought the LeMans to use as a driver, and built it originally to tow a boat. I didn't buy the boat, but used it as a driver for almost 20 years. I kept the outside as best I could, and just did the suspension, drivetrain, and minor interior stuff. This is engine #9 I think in it now, and I usually get around 100k+ miles out of each. Being a LeMans, it didn't matter, or at least until the spike in values hit. But I still don't care what folks think, I do what I want with it.

I've argued with folks that what I have in the car compared to the use I've gotten out of it makes it very inexpensive transportation, and I've had tons of enjoyment out of it at the same time. It's less expensive than buying even an econo type new car, once you add up tax, maintenance, etc.

It's hard to put a number (of money spent) on the car, because along the way, doing partial restos, it's basically a new (er) car when done, so it's tough to determine how much a particular stage cost. But I know I can get more for it than a newer car with 150k miles on it, not to mention it has like a million plus on it.

If I would have buckled every time someone said I was spending too much on something that wasn't X, or Y, I would have given up long ago, and missed out on all the enjoyment I had along the way.

.

[NeighborsComplaint]

It's going to be a great car when you're done with it and you have the satisfaction of doing a lot of the work yourself. Like they say, quite often it's the journey, not the destination that is the important part. At my age, I am not looking for anyone else's validation but I do get a kick out of people my age who get it and immediately turn back into that kid who loves cars..

I got a lot of satisfaction doing my own mechanicals and having a car that's been a part of my life for the past 28 years that I was able to breath life back into. I know how you feel about your Tempest and say "If it makes you happy, it can't be that bad" (OK Cheryl Crowe said that). Build it the way you envision it and you'll be happy with it.

[tiretread]

My Tempest is my bury-me-in-car. I don't plan on ever selling it and I'll probably pour another 20k in it before I'm done with it (already bought a "new" frame for it). I don't really mind. No kids here and I'm having a blast working on the car. I also have an 06 GTO that is extremely "built". If I could do that again, I would have just went H/C/I and enjoyed it as a driver rather than a weekend monster that will most likely break something if driven in anger. Either way, I could give a rats ass if someone thinks I'm wasting my money or not (I have motorcycles for that), so long as I'm enjoying it.

[LEGACY_GN]

Any money put into a 64 Tempest is a LOSS OF MONEY if you expect anything other than your personal enjoyment. Look at it as money spent on a vacation as you will never get it back monetarily.

If your doing it for you're own personal enjoyment than by all means, but DO NOT DELUDE YOURSELF that it is an investment in anyway.

Here is a great article on the future of classic cars. The bottom is about to fall out as baby boomers start to pass away and their kids start to flood the market with cars their generation has little interest in.

The future is bleak for our hobby.

https://www.caranddriver.com/feature...ash-it-feature

[benchracerx]

Bought my 64 Tempest Custom for $2000, very solid car, planned on putting a sbc in it and driving the wheels off it.
After seeing how solid and straight it really was I decided it deserved better than that. So 5 years and $20,000 later I had the cat I wanted to build. The time spent on it was a labor of love. I was doing exactly what I enjoy doing. Never turned into something that I dreaded going out to work on. When it was done ( I can never use the word finished), I did get the wheel time I wanted.
Then another project fell into my lap. Decided the Tempest wasn't a keeper and put it up for sale. Ended trading for a very nice Harley worth a little over half of what I had into the Tempest.
Do I regret it? NO. A few choices on some higher end parts that weren't necessary could have been more well thought out, but I am very proud of the car that was built mostly by my best friend and I.
Would I do it again? Absolutely. Already started on a 67 Cutlass for myself and a 68 Cougar for my best friend.
I new going into the build that I would never recoup what I put into it. That's not why we do what we do. The little things will help you stay motivated... having it rolling on tires after being a bare frame, the first time you start the engine, first time it drives under it's own power.
In the end- it will be worth all the blood,sweat and tears ( yes you will have all 3 ).

[Frank R]

I think that most people that restore cars are upside down in them. Most times it's less expensive to purchase a finished car. But you have to look at the whole picture. If you enjoy working on the car and will taking pride in showing the finished project there's value in that. Plus you will have the car you want exactly the way you want it. I'm upside down in my 69 GTO.. When I sit down and add everything up it's shakes you up. I've completed frame off restorations on two other GTO's and have been down this road before. But I get cold feet when I add things up.

[Jim Doran]

When it comes to activities that add joy to your life, spend as much as you want as long as it’s not detrimental to your current or future financial situation.

After paying for all your necessary expenses and after saving for the future are in line with your goals, spend anything that’s left over on activities you enjoy. That may be 1% of your income or 10%, but as long as you’re not putting your future in jeopardy, you need to enjoy the time you have.

[Cardo]

^ Right there. Jim nailed it.

[SteveO.]

One can be a happy old Pontiac driver without spending a lot.

I get to drive my 64 Tempest Custom all year around in the high desert. It also has interesting options like factory AC. With a healthy 326 2bbl. and TH 350 transplanted from a 71 Skylark, I keep up with all traffic in my city. The 350 trans. required NO modifications whatsoever - and the car still has a vibration-free drivetrain.

I bet a lot of people could enjoy a sunburned old car like this, and never concern themselves with high prices for paint and upholstery. Not to mention the effects of the sun, and birds.