[Bobalong]

I went with a 200 and in spite of the know it all on here who insults anyone who doesn't agree with him, and apparently just hasn't learned to get along with others I would do it again if I ever do another car / tranny swap.

The low first gear with my 3:73 rear end is perfect. (I don't race) although I just had to replace the back tires. Installing a manual shut off for the locking converter makes it more driveable around town.

I never turn it on below 60 MPH which is somewhere around 18-1900 RPM, prevents the chugging issue. The brake switch of course kicks it out if I forget.


But still have to manually turn it off if I slow to city driving. I don't mind. After all it's not my wife's Lexus, it's an almost 50 yr old muscle car.

There are probably a couple of dozen different combinations of converters, transmissions, computer, non computer, cable shift, constant pressure valve and non, variations of the 200 /700 and even more if you include the OD that can be put on the tail of a 350 or 400 transmission.

At the end of the day the one you are satisfied with is the right one.

[Navy Horn 16]

Yea, I don't know why that fella insists that everyone who doesn't run the transmission he runs is an "idiot". Plenty of people here are really happy with their well built 200-4Rs.

[67GTO4SPEED]

I'm not sure who you guys are talking about, but I've seen numerous Buick GN's making stupid power with 200R4's. Way more power than any naturally aspirated street V8's do.

[Sirrotica]

One word, torque, which a V8 has more of, and a G body isn't that heavy. The really fast GNs do a transmission a year refresh. At $3500 for a full tilt 200 I'll spend less for a 4L80E.

You can always build a transmission that is overkill for your application and not worry about it coming apart, or you can go with less mass, and a unit that was never engineered to handle high torque, and HP. Then wonder if the builder made it strong enough to take constant abuse. If you run skinny street tires never run down a drag strip, you probably aren't going to really stress a 200. I like peace of mind of knowing I'm covered no matter how hard I beat on something, what tire I'm running, and have no worries about the transmission taking a dump.

I have a stock 4L60E in my 400 HP 05 GTO with 137,000 miles on it and I worry about it blowing up someday when I run it hard through the gears. The LS GTOs have a habit of blowing transmissions when the engines start making more than the 400 HP. Also the ECM programing will pull power out to protect the transmission. Take that safety valve out with more HP in front of the transmission and the 4L60Es break. The transmission used to replace it is the 4L80E from the hot rod crowd.

GM didn't see fit to use a 200, or a 200 derivative in a car that had 400 HP engine, and RWD that they had to warranty for 3 years or 36,000 miles, namely the GTOs, there is probably a reason for that.

The aftermarket was able to take the chevy powerglide and re engineer every part in it to be used as a race transmission. The powerglide was a weak ass POS, but after trial and error lots of time and money, they got it so it can live behind a big engine in a drag car, but a full tilt powerglide has everything in it redesigned so it can last. The race powerglides are quite expensive, use zero GM OEM parts, they still fail, and need refreshing every year or so.

I did about 3 months weighing out all the options for a Pontiac V8 OD unit. I arrived that the 4L80E is probably the most cost efficient OD alternative. Do your research, and make your decision, the net is full of all kinds of information about OD transmission alternatives.

It's your money, spend it however you want.

[Overkillphil]

And right on que..

For general reference, the 200-4R was out of production for approximately 14 years before the Australian GTO came on the scene. I have a wild hunch that may have been the reason it wasn’t in the GTO.

However, the 200-4R in my 1970 GTO has performed flawlessly since the mid 1990’s when I pulled it out of a T-boned Monte SS, paid the body shop $300 for the trans, converter, dipstick and tube, TV cable, metric bolts, flywheel cover etc., yanked the TH-400 and swapped in the OD trans. Instant improvement across the board for the GTO and same predictable results like I’ve had with dozens of other swaps using the 200-4R.

[67GTO4SPEED]

Originally Posted by Sirrotica

One word, torque, which a V8 has more of, and a G body isn't that heavy. The really fast GNs do a transmission a year refresh. At $3500 for a full tilt 200 I'll spend less for a 4L80E.

You can always build a transmission that is overkill for your application and not worry about it coming apart, or you can go with less mass, and a unit that was never engineered to handle high torque, and HP. Then wonder if the builder made it strong enough to take constant abuse. If you run skinny street tires never run down a drag strip, you probably aren't going to really stress a 200. I like peace of mind of knowing I'm covered no matter how hard I beat on something, what tire I'm running, and have no worries about the transmission taking a dump.

I have a stock 4L60E in my 400 HP 05 GTO with 137,000 miles on it and I worry about it blowing up someday when I run it hard through the gears. The LS GTOs have a habit of blowing transmissions when the engines start making more than the 400 HP. Also the ECM programing will pull power out to protect the transmission. Take that safety valve out with more HP in front of the transmission and the 4L60Es break. The transmission used to replace it is the 4L80E from the hot rod crowd.

GM didn't see fit to use a 200, or a 200 derivative in a car that had 400 HP engine, and RWD that they had to warranty for 3 years or 36,000 miles, namely the GTOs, there is probably a reason for that.

The aftermarket was able to take the chevy powerglide and re engineer every part in it to be used as a race transmission. The powerglide was a weak ass POS, but after trial and error lots of time and money, they got it so it can live behind a big engine in a drag car, but a full tilt powerglide has everything in it redesigned so it can last. The race powerglides are quite expensive, use zero GM OEM parts, they still fail, and need refreshing every year or so.

I did about 3 months weighing out all the options for a Pontiac V8 OD unit. I arrived that the 4L80E is probably the most cost efficient OD alternative. Do your research, and make your decision, the net is full of all kinds of information about OD transmission alternatives.

It's your money, spend it however you want.

Define torque and really fast. There's a GN here in town that dynoed a little over 800 HP and like 650 lb ft and he's been driving and racing for years. Full interior car with AC and a race weight of 3700#.

I just know this - the car runs high 9's at around 145 MPH and he comes off the transbrake hard for V6 turbo car. Big V8's make more low end torque, but this car is on the brake bumping in for a long time at times with a lot of boost, and he said the 200R has been rock solid. I was always skeptical of 200's myself, but its been proven time and again that they are very capable and dependable if built right.

[pastry_chef]

https://shop.jakesperformance.com/our-team
On 2004R durability.

Originally Posted by jakeshoe

As mentioned in another thread,
ya'll need to find another builder (s).

If ya'll are killing them at 600 HP, someone doesn't know what they are doing. I have Buick GN in the shop today for a transbrake install that has YEARS on one (unknown origin, like all the failed ones you mention) with over 500 RWHP.

Originally Posted by jakeshoe

All the 200-4Rs that I've put into service at the honest 500-600 HP range, probably about 30 of them total, I've had 2 warranty issues. One was a servo issue with an aftermarket servo that air checked fine, but had issues in service. If I had installed the trans it would have been fixed before leaving the shop, and another with a very odd lube issue at one bushing that I suspect was contamination from the converter or cooler.
None were hard parts or friction failures. I haven't been building full time for over a yr now, so all of them except one have at least a yr of service on them, many in GNs or behind BBC's that are frequently (but not primarily) drag raced. Many have 2-3 yrs of service at that power level.
And the circuitry for 2-3 shift has been improved in that time. The last 3 or 4 I built have the latest circuit mods, and the others don't, yet they are still living fine.

On the TQ/HP debate.

Originally Posted by jakeshoe

First of all we are predominately dealing with V8s here, a Pontiac doesn't make significantly more torque for a given cid than a Chevy, Ford, Buick, etc.(Sorry guys, break out the dyno sheets and we'll clear this up)
I see it mentioned all the time in Pontiac circles but I have yet to see a dyno sheet that proves it. Some engine have a SLIGHT advantage at certain rpm ranges due to port configuration, valve angle, valve seat angle, etc but you certain don't have a 500 HP Pontiac that has significantly more torque than a 800 HP Chevy both being anywhere NEAR the same cid.
Remember is takes torque to make that HP and we're not making it with extreme rpm in the case of a 4 cylinder...

If I rate a trans at 800 HP, I am also basically rating it at ~800 lb/ft of torque.

HP IS as much of a killer of a transmission as pure torque is. HP is tq measured against time.
Better stated, RPM can be a killer of a transmission. Extreme cases cause disintegrated drums from centrifugal force, less extreme cases are rolled sprags from the 14 lb direct drum coming to an instant stop on the 1-2 shift. Sprag doesn't care what the input torque is so much, it DOES care what the RPM is on the 1-2 shift, because if goes from ~85% of the input rpm to ZERO rpm in milliseconds, stopping that 14 lb drum along with it.

Centrifugal apply of clutches from the residual fluid in the drum moving outwards and creating pressure on the apply pistons outer edge, partially applying the clutches and burning them....

There is much more to it than "torque" when you are dealing with an automatic transmission. Sheering off shafts or other hard parts is in many cases not the common failure.

[Sirrotica]

Just put one of your high dollar 200s in a diesel truck, and see if it lasts, if torque doesn't break things, why isn't anyone using a 200 behind a turbo diesel? No quotes for that scenario?

Funny thing is, Jake is the guy that promotes the 4L80E, and says that if your transmission is regularly breaking then you have the wrong tool for the job. It's on his site if you want to read it. He's the top 4L80E builder in the country, he's not been promoting 200s for 10 years at least.

When you get 200 to go 260,000 miles in a turbo diesel dually call me, my stock 4L80E will be well over 300,000 on it by then. I highly doubt anyone ever used a 200 behind any turbo diesel in a high torque application, or ever will, but according to the quotes, anyone could, but nobody does, I know torque doesn't matter..…….LOL.

There is supposed to be maybe 10 people in the whole USA that are capable of building a 200, so your odds of getting one of them is???? Any of those 10 people offer a 5 year 50,000 mile warranty? When you do find one of those 10 people, they don't come cheap, so if you want the high zoot top of the line 200 you're going to pay for their expertise and parts. Last I heard $3500-$4000, and no convertor.

GM who, designed the transmissions had to offer a warranty of each and every one of them, they never used a 200 in any truck application, not even a S10 with a 2.5. The original design appeared in a chevette. Tough job toting around an econobox with a mighty 1.6 engine at 60 HP.

The drum beating is falling on deaf ears, more people are going to the 4L80E because of the results in long term applications. At one time when Jake was still selling 200 builds his 750 HP 4l80E was cheaper than the 550HP 200, why do you suppose that would be?

I'll go with overkill, (and not Phil either) and err on the side of the designers that knew what their product was capable of. You can run all the quotes you want, I'm going to have a 4L80E in my cars and trucks because they last. You feel free to spend your money on the design that GM dropped decades ago, after all, what do they know, they only designed the part.

I'll leave you with a scenario, see how much torque you can put through a 3/8 inch extension clamped in a vise, and then how much you can put through a 1/2 extension. If all things are equal, do we know which one can take more torque before it breaks? You can't cheat physics, can you? The mass of a larger heavier link will always carry more torque.

Not hard to get a rise out of the 200 band ...……….

I almost forgot I have an 84 200 core behind a v6 buick if you guys need more cores.

Next you'll be telling me there is no need for a 9 inch ford rear axle that a 7.5 GM is just as robust and torque doesn't matter, the 7.5 is the hot setup.

I have one of those too if you want to buy a good 7.5 rear axle...…

[Chief of the 60's]

LMAO at this thread. Thanks for the morning entertainment.

[hurryinhoosier62]

Originally Posted by Sirrotica

Just put one of your high dollar 200s in a diesel truck, and see if it lasts, if torque doesn't break things, why isn't anyone using a 200 behind a turbo diesel? No quotes for that scenario?

Funny thing is, Jake is the guy that promotes the 4L80E, and says that if your transmission is regularly breaking then you have the wrong tool for the job. It's on his site if you want to read it. He's the top 4L80E builder in the country, he's not been promoting 200s for 10 years at least.

When you get 200 to go 260,000 miles in a turbo diesel dually call me, my stock 4L80E will be well over 300,000 on it by then. I highly doubt anyone ever used a 200 behind any turbo diesel in a high torque application, or ever will, but according to the quotes, anyone could, but nobody does, I know torque doesn't matter..…….LOL.

There is supposed to be maybe 10 people in the whole USA that are capable of building a 200, so your odds of getting one of them is???? Any of those 10 people offer a 5 year 50,000 mile warranty? When you do find one of those 10 people, they don't come cheap, so if you want the high zoot top of the line 200 you're going to pay for their expertise and parts. Last I heard $3500-$4000, and no convertor.

GM who, designed the transmissions had to offer a warranty of each and every one of them, they never used a 200 in any truck application, not even a S10 with a 2.5. The original design appeared in a chevette. Tough job toting around an econobox with a mighty 1.6 engine at 60 HP.

The drum beating is falling on deaf ears, more people are going to the 4L80E because of the results in long term applications. At one time when Jake was still selling 200 builds his 750 HP 4l80E was cheaper than the 550HP 200, why do you suppose that would be?

I'll go with overkill, (and not Phil either) and err on the side of the designers that knew what their product was capable of. You can run all the quotes you want, I'm going to have a 4L80E in my cars and trucks because they last. You feel free to spend your money on the design that GM dropped decades ago, after all, what do they know, they only designed the part.

I'll leave you with a scenario, see how much torque you can put through a 3/8 inch extension clamped in a vise, and then how much you can put through a 1/2 extension. If all things are equal, do we know which one can take more torque before it breaks? You can't cheat physics, can you? The mass of a larger heavier link will always carry more torque.

Not hard to get a rise out of the 200 band ...……….

I almost forgot I have an 84 200 core behind a v6 buick if you guys need more cores.

Next you'll be telling me there is no need for a 9 inch ford rear axle that a 7.5 GM is just as robust and torque doesn't matter, the 7.5 is the hot setup.

I have one of those too if you want to buy a good 7.5 rear axle...…

Well said, Brad! Most of the TH200R4 proponents on here have never seen the internal components of a TH200R4: I have. It’s no wonder this transmission requires a LOT of billet and cryo treated parts to withstand torque ratings over 400 ft/lbs!

[Chief of the 60's]

Don't baffle and befuddle people with cold hard facts guys.

[Sirrotica]

HH, I guess when you spend your whole adult life wrenching, you tend to see a trend of what lasts and what doesn't. I owned cars with 200s in them and have worked on a bunch of other peoples cars.

I raced cars with the T400, which is the 4L80E basis. I own a 93 turbo diesel dually that is at 260,000 miles with a stock 4L80E, it's going to take more than internet quotes to convince me that a higher mass unit has the same power transmission characteristics as a lesser one. I was born in the AM, it wasn't yesterday's AM though.

[Overkillphil]

Different tools for different jobs. Choose whatever appeals to you but that doesn’t disprove anyone else’s successes.

Twisted logic using a diesel as your “example”. I guess that’s why GM used Allison in theirs.

Jake also liked the 200-4R much more than the 700 as does many other noted builders. The 700 was used in many of your “truck” examples. Connect the dots.
Also, the 200-4R doesn’t have a removable tail shaft like tbe 700 so not really 4x4 capable. I would have thought an “expert” such as yourself would know that.

And then there is the old obsolete Chevette reference. Yes, the same tired reasoning given to me back in the late 80’s by the bozos at local trans shops. Yeah, the ones who couldn’t even build a decent 350 or 400. Those same idiots used to insist the GN, GNX and TTA used a 700-R4 because it fit their asinine Chevette argument.

Run your 4L80E’s as there’s certainly nothing wrong with them. They’re just not the right choice for many applications and proponents need to stop stacking the deck to make actual cost appear much less.

Oh and btw, your posts also qualify as “internet quotes”. Nothing more, nothing less.

[Sirrotica]

I guess the 200 experts don't like when their hero's admit that a 4L80E is the strongest 4 speed OD automatic......LOL

Ever hear of a divorced transfer case there mr. expert? It's not hard to adapt a 200 to 4WD if GM wanted to, it's been done many times. They clearly knew it was a weak design, they engineered it, designed the applications, and manufactured it.

FYI. the Hydramatic division makes different transmissions for 2WD and 4WD so your argument is full of holes, as usual. If they wanted an integral transmission transfer case assembly they would have simply made the 200 4WD unit able to bolt up to a transfer case. It's not as simple as unbolting the tailshaft extension and bolting on a transfer case. The mainshaft on a GM 4WD is shorter than a 2WD.

Torque matters, it breaks stuff. Diesel have more torque and they never use light duty transmissions behind them. THE 4l80E works just fine in a turbo diesel light duty truck application, I own one, no Allison needed.

Price matters, or you wouldn't be soooo touchy about a cheaper option that can withstand more abuse.

FWIW, I used no quotes until the Jakeshoe/Lonnie Diers link was posted. I went to LDs sight, and lo and behold, he agrees that in fact the 4L80E is the strongest 4 speed OD transmission available, who knew?
If Pastry Chef hadn't thrown that link up there, I probably wouldn't have checked it out...……...

If your happy with your 200, that's great, myself I want something more substantial. If anyone wants to spend more of their their money on a lighter duty transmission for their car, that's fine with me. I don't have a nickel invested in their car. It's not how I would do it, but there are ways to do things differently and arrive at the same end. Definition of end is, they both have OD, and they both drive down the road.

It all depends on how long you want the unit to last and how much power and abuse it will withstand. Drive it like an old lady with 300HP, The 200 will probably last a lifetime. Run it on the dragstrip frequently with slicks and 600HP you'll see why Lonnie Diers has that $450 add on option for freshening a 200. But then you have to pull it out, and ship it back to him, unless your in close proximity to his shop. Or he closes up for whatever reason.

Anyone contemplating an OD swap needs to really investigate the options before handing over their hard earned money. The gas savings is never going to pay for the swap, saving engine wear, probably not going to be a payback either. I've seen many people that ask about doing the swap and end up with a 3.08 axle and a T400, and they just forget about swapping transmissions.

[Navy Horn 16]

Some people have giant holes inside of them that they are trying fill with transmissions. They think they are "winning" some kind of argument, when they are just making fools of themselves while reasonable folks wonder why they can't discuss things like a reasonable person.

[Sirrotica]

Originally Posted by Navy Horn 16

Some people have giant holes inside of them that they are trying fill with transmissions. They think they are "winning" some kind of argument, when they are just making fools of themselves while reasonable folks wonder why they can't discuss things like a reasonable person.

My discussion was just fine, the other side of the opinion has to bring all their internet posts to prove their point. Funny thing was their references just scuttled their own opinions from the guy selling his transmissions.

However you choose to view it is fine with me, I know what I believe and have facts to back it up. Your buddies now they really have their facts slightly skewed. The winner is the guy that makes the best choice for his situation.

I could care less what others have in their cars, it's already been posted so just replay it.

[67GTO4SPEED]

Originally Posted by Sirrotica

I guess the 200 experts don't like when their hero's admit that a 4L80E is the strongest 4 speed OD automatic......LOL

Ever hear of a divorced transfer case there mr. expert? It's not hard to adapt a 200 to 4WD if GM wanted to, it's been done many times. They clearly knew it was a weak design, they engineered it, designed the applications, and manufactured it.

FYI. the Hydramatic division makes different transmissions for 2WD and 4WD so your argument is full of holes, as usual. If they wanted an integral transmission transfer case assembly they would have simply made the 200 4WD unit able to bolt up to a transfer case. It's not as simple as unbolting the tailshaft extension and bolting on a transfer case. The mainshaft on a GM 4WD is shorter than a 2WD.

Torque matters, it breaks stuff. Diesel have more torque and they never use light duty transmissions behind them. THE 4l80E works just fine in a turbo diesel light duty truck application, I own one, no Allison needed.

Price matters, or you wouldn't be soooo touchy about a cheaper option that can withstand more abuse.

FWIW, I used no quotes until the Jakeshoe/Lonnie Diers link was posted. I went to LDs sight, and lo and behold, he agrees that in fact the 4L80E is the strongest 4 speed OD transmission available, who knew?
If Pastry Chef hadn't thrown that link up there, I probably wouldn't have checked it out...……...

If your happy with your 200, that's great, myself I want something more substantial. If anyone wants to spend more of their their money on a lighter duty transmission for their car, that's fine with me. I don't have a nickel invested in their car. It's not how I would do it, but there are ways to do things differently and arrive at the same end. Definition of end is, they both have OD, and they both drive down the road.

It all depends on how long you want the unit to last and how much power and abuse it will withstand. Drive it like an old lady with 300HP, The 200 will probably last a lifetime. Run it on the dragstrip frequently with slicks and 600HP you'll see why Lonnie Diers has that $450 add on option for freshening a 200. But then you have to pull it out, and ship it back to him, unless your in close proximity to his shop. Or he closes up for whatever reason.

Anyone contemplating an OD swap needs to really investigate the options before handing over their hard earned money. The gas savings is never going to pay for the swap, saving engine wear, probably not going to be a payback either. I've seen many people that ask about doing the swap and end up with a 3.08 axle and a T400, and they just forget about swapping transmissions.

I never saw anybody here say a 200R was stronger than a 4L80E. Other people and myself just gave FACTS that there's a lot of 200R's that are getting the job done. I'm not sure why that seems to threaten you guys that much.

As far as the diesel thing? There's reason a GM never put a Duramax in front of a 4L80E, just like they didn't put a 200R in a truck. Neither were designed do that in stock form, but both can be built to withstand way more than they were designed to do. Your 6.5L turbo diesel isn't stressing a 4L80E because it isn't making that much power or torque, at least relative to modern diesels. I don't need an internet quote for that either, because I've owned several of them and still have 2 of them in my driveway today. One of them with a turned up 4911 pump, bigger injectors, running 12 psi, and true 4" exhaust straight off the turbo. It runs great, but its still not as strong as a stock 1st Gen 300HP/520TQ Duramax. Hell, I had a 6.2 in a 4X4 '86 Suburban with a Banks turbo in front stock 700R4 and it held up fine. That engine made every bit as much power as the 6.5 TD's did.

But hey, you guys can go on bashing the 200R and I'm sure the guys running them will keep enjoying their's.

[Sirrotica]

You're incorrect, the early vans with Duramaxs used 4L80Es, just not trucks.

FWIW, my 6.5 4X4 extended cab dually, has the mechanical pump turned 2 flats from stock 3 inch down pipe and 4 inch to the rear, so it's not stock, hauls a 33 foot 7000# camper and plows snow, 8 foot plow. Has 260,000 miles on the stock transmission. I bumped the waste gate up, but I don't have a boost gauge not sure how much boost. I was conservative because I didn't want to be putting head gaskets in it. It's not a Duramax, but it's not a dog POS stocker either.

There are quite a few hot rodded Duramaxs that do run 4L80Es behind them. Lonnie Diers says his 4L80Es can be had for 1350HP. Jake is more conservative in his ratings 1000 HP. for his top of the line.

A stock build with a Transgo shift kit, no billet parts, 700 HP, I'll never break one in my street car, one and done. If I ever wanted to bolt slicks on it I would have zero fear of the transmission going south, much cheaper/stronger than all billet 200. I like my chances of never having a problem with a 4L80E better than a 200 down the road. You guys do your thing, and I'll do mine.

[67GTO4SPEED]

Originally Posted by Sirrotica

You're incorrect, the early vans with Duramaxs used 4L80Es, just not trucks.

You're right, and they detuned it to 250HP and 460TQ.

I'm where you are - I don't car what people spend their money on. I just know a lot of people are using 200R's with great success, and they aren't rebuilding then all the time like you suggest. Maybe if they are drag racing all the time on slicks, but that's not what most people are doing. The 4L80E is a great transmission and is absolutely the best 4 speed OD in stock form. People are happy with both of them.

I personally wouldn't want either in a muscle car. I am a straight shift guy, and I'm going to be putting a TKO600 or a Magnum T56 in my car, so I think all you slushbox guys are sissies!
Why am I even on this thread?!?

[Sirrotica]

Drive a semi for 7 years and tell me about shifting gears, I can do it with the best of them without using the clutch too. I can float shift just about as fast as anyone on this board can shift a 4 speed using the clutch.