[GTO68FXSTC98]

Can some one explain why people that are selling RA of HO cars for more money than a standard model, but they no longer have the original engine or even a replacement RA or HO engine? Just because it used to be rare, if the motor is gone the extra value is gone, at least for me it would be.

[bird72]

I think there is a sliding scale answer to your question depending on rarity of car originally.

[dataway]

I've always been of the opinion that if there is no original engine, or a genuine service replacement, then the car becomes a "replica". Since the primary component of an RA option was the engine.

However one could also argue, that in the case of the RA or HO, that were often raced, driven hard, and ordered specifically for that reason ... that the engine is a "maintenance" part or "consumable". Which would also be a valid point. And as long as the engine is replaced with another with the proper numbers and parts ... it's as valid as any other replaced option ... like a new convertible top etc.

[unruhjonny]

here's my understanding:

1) Original cars are always worth the most when comparing apples to apples

2) Once in non-original motor cars, a (oh lets say 1969) GTO born with a L74/RAIII is worth more than a GTO born with a (std) L78 - even if the L78 car has a RAIII in it...
2a) 1969 GTO RAIII with non-numbers, but correct RAIII engine = $$$$
2b) 1969 GTO L78 with year correct RAIII engine = $$$

3) A car which is originally built with a more desirable engine/drivetrain, can always be rebuilt with correct parts (and sometimes even the original drivetrain can be reunited) - ergo, the RA car, will carry a premium.

I thought this was all common knowledge?

[unruhjonny]

Originally Posted by dataway

I've always been of the opinion that if there is no original engine, or a genuine service replacement, then the car becomes a "replica". Since the primary component of an RA option was the engine.
...

I have understood that unless there is paperwork to validate the SR engine being there from a dealership, that the SR car is worth less than the same car with a non-numbers, but 100% correct 'replacement' drivetrain.

[RocktimusPryme]

Yeah I mean you can always get really anal and track down correct parts and all. So the car that has the correct vin is always going to be inherently more value just based on potential.

If you have two minor league players hitting .250 with 10 home runs, but one is 26 years old and the other is 19 with the genetics of a god, the one that has the higher potential ceiling is going to be worth more on the trade market

[unruhjonny]

Originally Posted by RocktimusPryme

Yeah I mean you can always get really anal and track down correct parts and all. So the car that has the correct vin is always going to be inherently more value just based on potential.
...

That's a great way to put it.

And I am of the mind that there are more of those "anal" people out there that some might think...

[PurelyGTO68]

Originally Posted by GTO68FXSTC98

Can some one explain why people that are selling RA of HO cars for more money than a standard model, but they no longer have the original engine or even a replacement RA or HO engine? Just because it used to be rare, if the motor is gone the extra value is gone, at least for me it would be.

The body with VIN is the most important component of a rare and valuable car. It is possible to install all the RA parts in a car that originally came with a standard engine and that would still not make it a RA car.

A car with a RA VIN might not have the other parts but those items could be acquired and installed to make a more complete RA car. So the car itself is the most important and therefore more valuable item.

Since you mention HO models...I presume you are referring to 1968 and earlier models. Those RA models are especially hard to find since they did not have any identification badging so once the engine was separated from the car then it was very difficult to determine how it was originally optioned. Many of those cars would not have been saved if the bodies were rusted or heavily damaged.

The RA blocks, heads, carbs etc were saved in most cases and they are generally more desirable than same parts from base engine cars.....at least they have higher selling prices. As a percentage....the survival rate of RA VIN bodies is much lower than the other RA parts so they would be harder to acquire and fetch more money.

HO cars are the same story but to a lesser degree than RA models.

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[RocktimusPryme]

Originally Posted by unruhjonny

That's a great way to put it.

And I am of the mind that there are more of those "anal" people out there that some might think...

I don't think there are many people who have the stomach to actually go through with it, but I think there are a lot who think that way. They like to think they would go on the hunt for the correct stamped PCV. Even though chances are the car just sits for 5 years until their wife makes them sell it. Then a person buys it who just wants it to run and drive and be fun.

[PurelyGTO68]

Originally Posted by unruhjonny

I have understood that unless there is paperwork to validate the SR engine being there from a dealership, that the SR car is worth less than the same car with a non-numbers, but 100% correct 'replacement' drivetrain.

I debated with myself on that very topic regarding my own car. I think I prefer a correct SR block since it "could" be correct for my specific car. A block with the correct cast number but a VIN from another car would only be correct for that particular car. So, I think I would rather have the SR block with no VIN stamp vs a block with non matching partial VIN (all else being equal of course...).

My opinion could be a bit biased though...


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[unruhjonny]

/\ absolutely everyone's coming from their own bias.
I understand your logic, but to me a correct 'engine code' and correct 'date code castings' "replacement" motor is more authentic - then when you factor in how much harder it is getting to find production line engines for RA ect codes, it increases the challenge of the hunt;
A SR block would be applicable to a myriad of years/applications - and were made for many years - so they are actually easier to make a car correct rather than looking for the correct engine-code, and casting-date parts...

I must digress, that I also understand that if someone buys a complete car, or one with a "SR" block, that's an infinitely better place than to be starting from scratch, and if the car was complete, a person would probably be hard pressed to bother changing it.

My car isn't a RA car, but I vowed to find a correct drivetrain for it, and what do you know; with patience, and a good deal of luck, I happened on one 100% correct for my car.... you don't have to go so far as to worry about "stamped PVC lines" to want a car 100% correct - I think that level of restoration is for people who already have a numbers car to start with, and wish to take it to a concurs (sp?) gold level...

[GT182]

My understanding is that if the car does not have the original engine, and the rest of the original drivetrain, it value drops considerably.

What's the word on modified cars but you still have the original pieces and could change it back? I've been offered some really good money for it. But I'm not at the time where I want to even think of selling it.

For my GTO I have the complete factory 389 engine [all apart], but have a 68 400 in it for now, front disc brakes, and aluminum radiator. Original Muncie 4 speed, and original "open" rear end with 3:55 gears. Rear will be updated with an Auburn Limited Slip and 3:26 rear ratio. Paint is not original nor do I have the original Rally I rims for it. Will that lower the value of the car seeing the new modifications are to make it more road worthy?

[1965gp]

I agree with what most have said here. Don’t forget that in most states the car carries a title which you would find the parts for and build.

No one I know builds a correct Ram Air II motor then hoes searching for a matching car (unless try already have the parts).

[PurelyGTO68]

Originally Posted by 1965gp

I agree with what most have said here. Don’t forget that in most states the car carries a title which you would find the parts for and build.

No one I know builds a correct Ram Air II motor then hoes searching for a matching car (unless try already have the parts).

They are out there. I was contacted by several individuals wanting to purchase my RAII project car and I think at least 2 of them said they had a complete or nearly complete engine waiting for a car to put it in.

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[mgarblik]

Originally Posted by GTO68FXSTC98

Can some one explain why people that are selling RA of HO cars for more money than a standard model, but they no longer have the original engine or even a replacement RA or HO engine? Just because it used to be rare, if the motor is gone the extra value is gone, at least for me it would be.

Interesting thread and timely for me. Next week I will have a 1968 GTO convertible delivered to my shop. It was recently purchased by a guy I know
from an estate sale. It was bungled in among a ton of Corvettes and Corvette parts and that's what this guy knows and loves. He appreciates the GTO but has no interest in it, not a Pontiac guy. I told him to get the PHS right away and see what he has. Turns out to be an HO, bench seat, auto on column, AC car plus many other options. Potentially a cool car. Car is supposed to have less than 40K miles on it and hasn't run in 25-30 years. Unfortunately, the original engine is gone, replaced with some kind of Pontiac engine that is incorrect. I told him in my opinion, without the correct engine, the value would be greatly reduced, possibly as much as 50%. He took my advise and scoured the country and found a correct HO block and heads made about 3 weeks before the car was assembled. I will be building this engine and installing it for him. It's not the "born with" engine but at least the correct HO engine with proper date window. I think it will still be worth less than the original engine but not near as much. Once it gets here, I will start a thread and post some pics. I have not seen it in person yet.

[72projectbird]

Originally Posted by dataway

I've always been of the opinion that if there is no original engine, or a genuine service replacement, then the car becomes a "replica". Since the primary component of an RA option was the engine.

Soooooooo

If I add a RA, does mine become real?

[sdbob]

Searching for an original block to the body is difficult but not impossible. I had an original 74 SD 4spd block,it was separated from car.tried to buy car and forgot about it. Another guy called, we got talking,as I knew the original owner, he bought the car. I said I have the block! You can get lucky.

[John V.]

My view, selling a car and offering to sell a car are two different things.

A seller can ask whatever he wants for a car, until money changes hands, the "value" of the car is unknown.

Just because a seller is asking more money for a RA car with NOM vs. what another seller is asking for a comparable "standard" model with original engine, does not make the RA car "worth" more.

And when money DOES change hands, only the seller can really say that the car was "worth" what he got for it. The buyer can say what he paid for it, but there is no guarantee that he would be able to find another buyer willing to give him what he just paid for the car. If he cannot, then the car is hardly "worth" what he just paid.

I say that a car is only really worth what one could quickly liquidate it for. A patient seller might get a lot more money for the same car but it might take months or years for the "right" buyer to come along.

If you absolutely HAD to sell your car in 72 hours, do you think it is "worth" as much as you'd like to think?

I can say that I wouldn't part with my car for all the tea in China. That just means it is "worth" something to me that isn't measured in dollars. Perhaps if somebody came and offered stupid money for it, I'd be moved to sell. But if I needed to raise money to pay for a life-saving operation for my grandson, I would liquidate my car and it would be sold for a lot less than the imagined value that I place on it when I claim that I would NEVER sell it. I wouldn't be able to wait for better offers that may not ever materialize.

That is what I mean by liquidation value.

[dataway]

Originally Posted by 72projectbird

Soooooooo

If I add a RA, does mine become real?

I mostly just said that to annoy people

[1965gp]

MJARBLIK- if this car is in OH my dad looked at it and is a potential buyer. Nice, clean car from TX.