[Cardo]

I've got a feeling it's oil pump related... that half speed in relation to rpm and deep in the motor makes me think it's there.

[dataway]

I am also voting for an oil pump/ oil pump drive issue.

[Va68goat]

Originally Posted by wrench

I think you will tear it down and find absolutely nothing wrong. I hope I'm wrong, easy to fix if you find an issue, but I like that sign, lol. So that's my guess.

I dont know if guessing finding nothing wrong will be the winning answer considering the strange knocking noise. I hope it's something simple but unless that knocking noise is normal, I'm sure he will find something!

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk

[gtofreek]

Originally Posted by torqhead

Paul, in no way was I implying you would have done something wrong. I have the upmost respect for your work even though I haven't had you do anything for me personally....... yet....

Anyhow, if a piston skirt collapsed causing piston slap wouldn't that still count ... I know this is definitely an interesting one for all of us and confident you'll figure out what the hell it is!

Trust me, no offense taken. I have pretty thick skin! But yes, you are right, I suppose if a skirt did collapse, it would count as piston slap, so yes, you would be right in that case. Thanks for the confidence!

[gtofreek]

Originally Posted by Cardo

I've got a feeling it's oil pump related... that half speed in relation to rpm and deep in the motor makes me think it's there.

Unfortunately, that has already been eliminated as the cause.

[grivera]

I think one of the crank counterweights is making contact with something - maybe the windage tray after the oil pan is installed. As in the oil pan making contact with the windage tray and pushing it so crank clearance is compromised.

[tom s]

I don’t have a clue and really don’t care except for having this thread go away!Sure Paul feels the same.Tom

[grivera]

Originally Posted by tom s

I don’t have a clue and really don’t care except for having this thread go away!Sure Paul feels the same.Tom

Paul AND Joe - he hasn't been able to enjoy this build/car

[Va68goat]

tom s,

Grow up dude...With the energy you spent in replying to a thread that you don't care about, you should take that energy and do something constructive...Move along tom s...move along!

[TedRamAirII]

Originally Posted by Va68goat

TedRamAirII,

Yes...It does have a windage tray but we have checked the spacing of the windage tray!

Just a guess! I think its going to be something minor and overlooked. Good Luck!
The oil pump....even though turning at half crank speed, is spinning pretty fast with geared teeth, so any knocking would be a lot faster than engine speed, so I think oil pump related is pretty much ruled out. I wonder if a crank counterweight could be rubbing something somewhere! If it had a Mechanical Fuel pump that could surely make a noise like that. Did you ever get your hand around the oil pan to "feel" for any knocking or vibrations? I will be happy when you find the answer.

[Va68goat]

TedRamAirII,

When we pulled the motor a month ago, we inspected the oil pump and shaft. The shaft had some witness marks on it. I'm pretty new to working on cars but some of the guys thought we had a smoking gun. We switched out the oil pump and shaft, re-installed the motor and it had the same knock. We did feel around the oil pan and didn't find anything unusual. I have all the confidence that this motor will be a beast when I get it back.

[tooski]

Originally Posted by grivera

I think one of the crank counterweights is making contact with something - maybe the windage tray after the oil pan is installed. As in the oil pan making contact with the windage tray and pushing it so crank clearance is compromised.

If it is half engine speed, it wouldn't be a counterweight making contact.
I've been watching this thread as I'm curious.

[gtofreek]

Well, I found the problem almost right away. I continued on to disassemble the entire engine just to put my mind at ease. This has been driving Joe and myself out of our minds trying to figure this out. I started by turning the engine over as it was and listened. Every now and then, with no rhyme or reason, I would hear an unusual click noise. Almost sound like the oil pump drive shaft dropping 1/4" inch and hitting the pan. Something to that sort, or maybe the sound you might hear if there were no rockers hooked up to the lifters and the lifter didn't stay in contact with the cam lobe and then dropped and hit it. Something like that. So I pulled the intake and valley pan off to take a look. Also the valve covers. I saw nothing unusual. Everything looked fine and normal. So I turned the engine over some more, and every now and then it would make this click noise, but without rhyme or reason. It just did it when it wanted. Sometimes I turned the engine over 4-5 times before it would do it, sometime 2. But it sure sounded like it was coming from the distributor area. So I look at the distributor to see if there was a gap between the reluctor, and the magnetic pickup. There was what looked to be about a .030" gap. So I turned the engine over and watched it. There was always a gap but the gap changed slightly as it turned around. I attributed it to the reluctor paddles not being exactly the same length. So not seeing anything there, I pulled the distributor to take a closer look. Spun it by hand and the gap looked about the same as it did in the engine. I turn the distributor on it's side, and now that the reluctor is not shadowed by the rotor, I can see it paddles were shiny on the top 1/8" or so. So I look back at the reluctor to pickup gap and the reluctor is touching it! Turns out the lower bushing of this new distributor is extremely wore out in less than 200 miles. Really after a few dyno pulls. I took some not so great videos with my camera phone with a scratched lens but you should get the picture. I figure the uneven load of the oil pump is making this gear jump all over the place and randomly hitting the magnetic pickup. There is no wear whatsoever in the shaft. Just the black oxide coating has been rubbed shiny. It's like this bushing is extremely soft. It's not bronze. It looks like some sort of iron, that may not have been carborized? The composite distributor gear has some minor wear to the top 1/4 inch that was taking all the load but otherwise it looks great, considering. Says something about those gears. I'd say it has about .005" wear on it. Just barely enough to try to catch a fingernail on. The cam to dizzy gear contact pattern looks perfectly centered to, with about 3/4 tooth engagement. I could find no other reason for the bushing to wear like that as it was not like that when I pulled it apart to change the gear, and re-curve it. I've seen bronze bushings wear the shaft of the distributor pretty severely yet this shaft has no wear that can be felt, it's perfectly smooth. We checked the shaft to see if it was bent, but it was real straight. Also the wear on the teeth of the dizzy gear was even all the way around the gear.

Has anyone had an MSD dizzy gear wear out this fast? I'm wondering if they got a bad batch of hardened bushings.

BTW, the piston skirts look beautiful! Also, I stand corrected, the piston skirts had .0047" clearance!
Here is a link to some videos on youtube. The second video is the best.
https://youtu.be/0QOwVaJcQ_Q
https://youtu.be/soh91OYexBM

[Joe's Garage]

I heard a rumor maybe six months ago from two different sources that there was a bunch of COUNTERFEIT MSD stuff hitting the streets.

Can't remember now who said it - it might even have been here on PY.

It was said that the counterfeit MSD stuff was visually dead-nuts-on.........

Damn communists.....

[wbnapier]

Interesting! You two must be relived to have resolution. Cheers to a successful diagnosis.

[pastry_chef]

Originally Posted by Joe's Garage

COUNTERFEIT MSD stuff hitting the streets.

A big reason to buy from a mainstream source, like Summit.

[Va68goat]

What a relief....Paul called it early on that it was going to be something stupid. Since I don't know cars that well, I don't how rare of an issue this is but I'll always remember this one.

I purchased the MSD "Ready to run" distributor Part# 8528 at Advance Auto Parts on March 6th, 2017 (Just incase any of you guys are wanting to know where and when it was purchased). I had to order it online because it's not over the counter.

https://shop.advanceautoparts.com/p/...528/22360318-P

[TedRamAirII]

Great News! Too bad it had to be removed and shipped back for that. I thought the distributor had been examined already? The noise seemed pretty "rhythmic" on the video, so I figure with a load on the oil pump shaft, it must have been hitting every revolution. I sure was fooled by the noise, as it sounded like it was in the bottom, not from the top, and certainly not a "clicky" type noise. That's why I suggested to get your hand around the engine and feel for vibrations, you may have picked up on a bad vibration originating from the distributor area. A good thing is that Paul gets to look it over and verify and all is well. Although it would not have made sense at the time, to even check the distributor, a shop with a ignition scope would have surely seen a irregular ignition pattern. I can tell you, I dont think anybody would have put a knock and ignition issue together! I'm sure Paul will get it shipped back ASAP and you can get RIPPIN'

MSD 90 day warranty! They really stand behind their product! It surely didn't last that long. I would contact them and try to send it back. I'll bet they blame it on the engine and claim "Nobody else has had that problem!"

[shaker455]

Great Detective work Paul!

[grivera]

This is awesome news!! Nice job Paul - and good for you Joe.