[Tomslemans67]

I believe Lectric Limited has a unit you can install and keep the original tac. Tom

[unruhjonny]

Sorry for continuing this tangent, but is this article now out of date?
(I have it saved to my computer)

link to PDF
Link to this quote

An article from SWduke

Default NAPA Echlin ignition points (contact set)
Over the years there has been confusion over the various contact sets sold by NAPA under the Echlin brand. There are a total of six applicable to Delco single point distributors not including the "uniset" that combines the points and condenser in a single assembly. NAPA also sells a price leader line called Mileage Plus and a couple of other sets in different brands.

TDB member and NAPA jobber Tim Schuetz of Waukesha, WI also wanted to get to the bottom of it, so Tim sent me four of the six part numbers for analysis in boxes marked CS86, CS89, CS786P, and CS7860.

Armed with a three-pound spring scale, mic, caliper, multimeter, and plain screw driver to partially disassemble the breaker arm leaf springs for measurement, I offer the following measured and visual observations. A summary of the measured data follows the discussion. All have screw type terminals rather than using the breaker arm spring to secure the wires like the old Delco D106P, a design I never cared for, but the old Delco D106PS has a screw terminal.

Achieving consistent breaker arm tension readings required a little practice, and I found than listening to Bach during the measurements improved consistency.

CS86: This set is listed on the Web site as "standard" and is equivalent to the OE points installed on single point Corvette distributors before '73 when the uniset became OE. The breaker arm tension is speced at 19-23 oz., and in addition to the main leaf spring, which is non-magetic or just slightly magnetic indicating stainless steel, there is a thin parallel leaf that appears to be copper and is likely there for conductivity. It is too thin to add breaker arm tension.

CS89: This set is listed on the Web site as "high performance" and appears identical to the CS86, but main breaker arm leaf is .002" thicker, which increases breaker arm tension to equal the 28-32 oz. of the long-discontinued Delco D112P.

CS786P: This set is listed on the Web site as "vented", but the set in the box was not vented and is most likely the CS786 discussed next. Other than the perforated contact pads, the CS786P is likely identical to the CS786. Vented points have been around for decades, and the theory is that they run cooler, which extends point life, but I have no personal experience and have never seen a scientifally conducted test.

CS786: This set is listed on the Web site as "heavy duty" and has larger contact pads, which increases contact area by about 43 percent. Also, the breaker arm is a different design - different geometry - which made measuring breaker arm tension difficult, but it's basically the same as the CS86.

CS7860: This set is also listed on the Web site as "high performance", and has the same spring thickness and breaker arm spring tension as the CS89, but it has some different construction details. The other three sets' breaker arm springs are retained to the breaker arm by a 90 degree tab that fits into a slot in the breaker arm. This set has no tab. Rather, the end mounted to the breaker arm is longer allowing it to be secured to the breaker arm with the rivet that retains the rubbing block. It does not have the thin copper parallel spring, but I could find no difference in resistance with my ohmeter that measures to about 0.1 ohm. All are essentially zero to 0.1 ohm resolution. The insulator is red rather than white on all the others, and the adjustment spring has blue Loctite.

This set also has another interesting feature. Packaged with the capsule of grease is a small felt pad with a slot. The slot fits over the rubbing block, and the instructions say to grease both the rubbing block and felt pad. This should help retain grease and should be included with the other sets in my opinion. Despite this extra feature and what appears to be somewhat more robust construction, this is the least expensive set of the six!

CS7860C: This set is listed on the Web site as "racing only", and I suspect it has higher than 32 oz. breaker arm tension. Since the 32 oz. sets will go to at least 7200 revs in a snug distributor, this set should not be necessary for any road-going Corvette with something close to an OE engine configuration.

Part.........Spring.....Spring.......... .Contact.. ...Web site..............Online
number.....tension,...thickness,......di ameter.... comment.............price
...............oz..........in........... ......in.

CS86........24..........0.018/.006.....0.152".......standard.......... ....$16.49
CS89........32..........0.020/.006.....0.152".......high performance...$21.49
CS786......24...........0.018/.006.....0.185".......heavy duty..........$15.69
CS786P....---...........----/-----......------......vented................$16.49
CS7860.....32..........0.020/---.......0.152........high performance...$14.99
CS7860C...---.........-----/---........-----........racing only...........$16.49

My basic usage recommendations are as follows:

1. Engines with redlines up to 5500 and the 1.8 ohm ballast - CS86.

2. Engines with redlines up to 5500 and the 0.3 ohm ballast - CS786. The additional contact area might reduce the tendency to burn up points, which is not uncommon on systems with the 0.3 ohm ballast, especially in cold weather. Ballast resistance decreases with decreasing operating temperature and vice versa.

3. Engines with redlines over 5500 - CS7860. This set is less expensive than the CS89 and has some better features.

Proper distributor operation is necessary for peak engine performance - everything from idle quality to making it to the redline with no spark scatter or ignition breakup. It's possible that if you have a freshly blueprinted distributor, a standard tension set will make it to 6500 in a mechanical lifter engine, but in my experience, maximum high rev performance in mechanical lifter engines requires a 32 oz. set. As with many tuning parameters, what works in your distributor for you boils down to the condition of your distributor, your driving habits, and maybe some experimentation. My bet is that a majority of single point distributors out there are in need of a blueprint overhall, which has been discussed on the TDB many times. If the ignition system doesn't deliver a properly timed spark of sufficient energy for all engine operating conditions, the engine will never achieve peak performance and fuel economy. It's that simple!

Nominal point life is about 30K miles, but can vary widely depending on ignition system configuration and condition. Since most of our cars have low annual mileage accumulation, it's a good idea to check that there is still some lubrication for the rubbing block at least every couple of years, and while you're at it, check point resistance and dwell angle. Dwell angle changes will effect initial timing, so checking initial timing is also a good idea after you have you checked and, if necessary, adjusted the points. Throw in the idle speed/mixture adjustment procedure and you've done a "minor tuneup" in less time than a wash job.

A hearty thanks to Tim Schuetz who said he doesn't want the test samples back. My plan is to auction off the CS86 and CS786 at our So. Cal. Chapter meeting next month and donate the proceeds to the chapter, but for the time being, I'm going to hang on to the CS89 and CS7860.

Duke

[Formulajones]

Those numbers are still available through Napa here although they are $25 a piece now, at least here anyway. So that information may be a bit dated.

I haven't looked at an Echlin set in years and never use them, but the biggest thing I look for that wasn't mentioned despite all the info in that article, is whether or not the contacts are of solid material. Most of the cheaper $20 sets I've seen have a hollow center. Which is why I've stuck with Accel all these years, plus they have a 100% 35 year long track record with me so I have no interest in experimenting.

However, next time I'm at Napa I'll ask them to pull a set and have a look out of curiosity. I can also mic the diameter of the contact on Accel points that I have here if interested for comparison.

[Formulajones]

GM part number 8101 Accel 23 ounce set.....mic'd the contact at .188"

Also have a 32 ounce set here that also mic'd at .188"

What I see that is interesting in comparison to your chart is that the only 32 ounce sets offered by Echlin only have .152" contacts, while the Accel's I have here are .188"

I use the 23 ounce sets here 99% of the time, even in our solid lifter 302, and despite that article stating the 24 ounce Echlin's are only good to 5500 rpm, I run the 23 ounce Accel's to 7,000 without issue.

[unruhjonny]

good to know.

good service parts are actually harder for me to get than you - so I need to know all this stuff before ordering anything.

[64speed]

With an MSD 6AL box a set of points will last forever. I didn’t grow up with points so I have never really used them. Always switched to HEI or MSD. The Holley Dual Sync first generation was manufactured by Holley and had a huge cap and was tall for a Pontiac distributor. The second generation is manufactured by MSD and some of the other boards said they were better so I called summit and got them to let me switch even though I’ve had my first one for more than a year. This is my first foray into fuel injection and timing control. I’m also a little worried about the composite gear on the roller cam wearing out and leaving me stranded so I guess I will keep a brass one in my bag of tricks.

[Sun Tuned]

Thank you John!

I was wondering if anyone caught that. Or bothered to notice I said it and let it sink in and care.

Lots of things occur in 50 years on these cars.

[DANTIP]

I'm a fan of the M&H electric "Breakerless SE" point replacement. I've used them in every GM pointed distributor for several years and the only problem I've ever had was I had to retighten module. They take about an hour to install and use the same single wire the points use. I highly recommend!

http://www.breakerless.com/

[barrierblue66]

I'm running 2, in a 63 Cat, 389 and 66 GP 421, both installed for 10+ years. No issues and I drive my cars a decent amount of miles. Finger's crossed but I feel comfortable.

1963 Catalina Safari
1966 Grand Prix
1992 Grand Prix Petty Edition

[grahamp]

I have installed a pertronix ignitor in my Judge distributor, it has worked well but the hood tach no longer works. Has anybody solved this problem? Otherwise back to points!

[78 WS6]

Some tachs require a small resistor in the trigger wire. Ran into this problem w/Sun mini tach, contacted Pertronix and was given a part number from Radio Shack. If unable to get correct resistor, PM me w/address and I'll send you one of my spares. I am no longer working on customer's cars and my mini tach is now fed from HEI and of course Corvette is mechanical, so I am set.

[tom s]

I have never had a issue in the 20 plus years I have used them.I always have them installed by someone like Suntuned that also rebuilds and curves my dizzy.Have them in 3 cars now and a couple spare dist in my drawer plus 2 engines that are spares .FWIW,Tom

[lust4speed]

It's always the things you can't quite feel that might not be good for your engine. I checked out two distributors with Pertronix I conversions this week. First was out of a 66 GTO engine I'm rebuilding and when I ran the distributor up on the Sun machine the module was dropping different cylinders sporadically, and probably not often enough to be felt when driving. Checked the little rectangular weights in the wheel, clearance, and other areas but the module was just neglecting to fire every now and then. I had another distributor given to me with a Pertronix I conversion so I dug that out figuring I'd donate the module if it worked. No dropouts but every once in awhile a ghost firing would occur on one of the cylinders about 15 degrees before the actual signal. Coming up on a compression stroke is definitely not a good time to toss in extra spark. Checking things out didn't provide any solutions. I took time to swap parts between the two units until I was assured that the problem was in the modules and not in the magnet rings or elsewhere. Ordered out a Fast Xri and the ignition curve is now silky smooth all the way up.

[se428bandit]

I've had good luck with a conversion kit for my Ventura when it had the 350. So when I put the 455 in it I ran their distributor and coil, it ran good for 6 months and after that I had problems all the time. The last straw is when I crank it up at a car cruise and it sounded like a cannon going off through the exhaust. I put a MSD in it and it fired right up all the time.

[djustice]

When i bought my car it had a pertronix distributor in it, it woked great for 2 years (was probably on the car a few years before i bougth it) until i had intermittent start issues, changed the coil over but still had intermittent start issues, tried a different module, same deal.
Finally i bougth a D.U.I distributor, and all issues went away, dont really know what was the problem was, maybe pickup coil?

[Formulajones]

I'm sure I've posted about my run ins with pertronix on this forum in the past. This has been 20 years ago so the theory that parts are even worse now doesn't apply to the issues I was having.

I had 2 cars I was using it on. My wife's 71 454 corvette and my 70 RA Formula. The vette seemed okay and was trouble free for the short time I owned the car after the swap.

The Firebird was a different story. On the highway that thing would shut down like you turned off the key. After 15 minutes it would fire back up like nothing was wrong. A few more miles and the same thing. I finally got off the highway and took the backroads. The car dying at 70 mph with cars everywhere is a bit unnerving, and dangerous. I figured at least on back roads if it dyed I'd have a place to pull off without getting killed.
However cruising slower speeds on the back roads seemed to make it happy and no more problems. Next trip on the highway the same thing happens.
Pertronix was a stand up company. Sent the kit back in and they tested everything and told me it was a faulty module. Sent out a new one. Installed that and exact same scenario. Highway cruising for a few miles the car would just die. Again Pertronix tested that setup and said the module was faulty and sent another new one. That one is still sitting on the shelf to this day. I reinstalled the points on the bird and it's been flawless for the last 20 years.

I eventually came to the conclusion that since Pontiac buries the distributor in the back and below the intake, the extreme heat was taking it's toll on that module. With very little air flow back there, and high rpm highway driving, that thing would overheat and shut down. Pertronix agreed telling me they do have a protection feature built in and they will shut down to protect themselves. Low rpm back road cruising kept things cool enough to not have a problem. I've never fooled with them since and have absolutely no interest in switching any of the cars over with any conversion offered today. The points serve me perfectly fine on 4 different vehicles here and are daily driven.

[dataway]

It was popular to use their kits in vintage race motorcycles for a while ... but they just didn't live on certain bikes, and they did on others. Same scenario .... apparent heat related failures. Frustrating because they would work like a charm in the pits.

I replaced all mine with magneto/CDI which are astonishingly reliable.

[Formulajones]

What I've been doing most recently, if you really want electronic maintenance free stuff, is simply keep the points distributor and fire an MSD box with it.

Lots of benefits and no draw backs.

Points simply become a trigger for the box and no longer supplies a spark, so the points need no further maintenance and last for ever.

You gain a rev limiter and a multispark discharge.

The real beauty of it is that if the box ever quits, I can simply swap 2 wires on the coil and run off the points in a matter of 30 seconds, eliminating the box all together, and get home. Extremely easy road side fix. No more modules to fail, no spare parts in the glove box needed, no tools required.

In my opinion it's even better than an HEI. I've done that too in the past and yes I know when those modules quit you can carry a spare and swap it out. Been there done that. Still not very fun trying to pull the cap and rotor off, removing wires so you can rotate the cap out of the way, dealing with those tiny module screws and changing all that on the side of the road, and hope you don't drop something, lol. Especially no fun on a Pontiac that doesn't exactly have easy access to the distributor. With the points/MSD I'm simply plugging in 2 wires and done. It's clean, it's simple, and still looks completely stock.

The other nice thing is you aren't buying these cheap Chinese distributors with god knows what kind of quality control these days, worrying about bushings etc... and getting harder to find a good used OEM HEI these days that doesn't have a wobbling shaft.

[mback12000]

It's not zero maintenance, you still have rubbing block wear. But I see your point (get that pun). I actually trigger my Holley Dominator ECU with points (with factory distributor) although I use the computer for full electronic timing curve control as I have locked out both mech and vacuum advance. I did it temporarily for a first start, but then after dynoing the setup it proved to work perfectly and my laziness kept it. You need to check the point gap, the rubbing block still wears and when it does your timing changes.

Originally Posted by Formulajones

What I've been doing most recently, if you really want electronic maintenance free stuff, is simply keep the points distributor and fire an MSD box with it.

Lots of benefits and no draw backs.

[Formulajones]

Originally Posted by mback12000

It's not zero maintenance, you still have rubbing block wear. But I see your point (get that pun). I actually trigger my Holley Dominator ECU with points (with factory distributor) although I use the computer for full electronic timing curve control as I have locked out both mech and vacuum advance. I did it temporarily for a first start, but then after dynoing the setup it proved to work perfectly and my laziness kept it. You need to check the point gap, the rubbing block still wears and when it does your timing changes.

Actually you don't even have to worry about rubbing block wear. The box doesn't care what the dwell is. As long as the points open and close that's all it cares about.

Actually on the other cars I run strictly points in, I don't even worry about it. I check it once a year with a dwell meter and most often then not I don't even have to touch them.

I like your idea of running the ECU, sounds interesting.