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#41
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Sun Tuned,
Question for you on module failures in general. When they do fail, what part is it internally that fails? |
#42
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We've tried 3 customer supplied Pertronix units. 2 were complete distributors, and 1 was a conversion. Couldn't get any of them to fire the engine on the dyno. Called Pertronix and questioned them if we were doing something wrong. They told me what to check, and I did. Everything they had me check was fine, but they wouldn't work. Spent hours dealing with them. Installed MSD and no problems. No more will we try to use one.
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Paul Carter Carter Cryogenics www.cartercryo.com 520-409-7236 Koerner Racing Engines You killed it, We build it! 520-294-5758 64 GTO, under re-construction, 412 CID, also under construction. 87 S-10 Pickup, 321,000 miles 99Monte Carlo, 293,000 miles 86 Bronco, 218,000 miles |
#43
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Rocky,
I've only cut a couple apart to see what's inside. If they're bad they get chucked. It would depend on what caused the failure. They have IC's, diodes, transistors inside. And multiples of each. Depending on what caused the initial issue "generally" one of two transistors fail. That's all about the pnp, and npn electronics stuff. If it goes out there's no way at home really you can just dig in and mcguyver it at that point. Just diagnose and troubleshoot it and identify the failed module and replace it. Since time is money, the economics of trying to repair it make not a lot of sense. A look at an MSD HEI module will give a little better idea of what it takes to build one. The guts on those are open for the eyes to see. What is kinda neat is to look at the original GM deal and realize the electronics part of all that are housed in a space roughly 3/4"X1". This was figured out way back in 1969 ish. Motorola was the big deal with ic chips back then. All abo |
#44
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this is worth quoting;
Quote:
When really intrigued me was getting an electrinoc conversion with a built in adjustable rev limiter... But I just kept running points. I believe I commented something along the lines of what 'Jones said last year, and was scoffed at for it... I'm glad I'm not the only one with zero interest in electirc ignition modules in my classic. I actually pulled over on my drive to work this morning; There was a 95-97 Trans Am on the side of the highway; I think his ignition (opti-spark) was the issue - it would just cut out... He started and stalled three times while I was stopped. dang electronics
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1970 Formula 400 Carousel Red paint on Black standard interior A no-engine, no-transmission, no-wheel option car. Quite likely one of few '70 Muncie three speed Formula 400's left. 1991 Grand Am: 14.4 @ 93.7mph (DA corrected) (retired DD, stock appearing) 2009 Cobalt SS: 13.9 @ 103mph (current DD; makes something north of 300hp & 350ft/lbs) |
#45
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Quote:
I'll likely do one of 2 things. Just run a box and let the points trigger it. Still reliable as it would drive away on points alone by moving a couple wires around if the box ever failed. Or just run a complete MSD setup and go electronic that way. We have 2 cars here that both have had MSD distributors and boxes in them for more than 20 years without complaint. But they are weekend fun cars that see about 5-7,000 miles a year for the last 20 years. I don't care for HEI's either. Not that they don't work, as long as you can find a reliable module, but I don't care for the non stock appearance of them in classic cars. Just seems the aftermarket electronic business is getting kind of shaky these days. |
#46
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Quote:
They still offer stockish 23 ounce, 32 ounce, and 48 ounce sets, and they all come with the rubbing block felt and a little squirt of grease. Only set I've ever found that still does that these days. As far as quality goes, they still seem to be just as good as they were 40 years ago. I typically run the 23 ounce sets and they go to 7,000 rpm without any issues. They still have solid contacts, not that cheap $20 hollow crap you get with no name store bought sets that seem to burn up quickly and can't be filed. The 20 year old Accel set I pulled out just recently that has seen more than 50,000 miles still looked pretty darn good. A quick touch with a file had the contact surface looking like new. I kept those and will reuse them at a later date. If for some reason supply dried up I'll have to cross that road when I get there but for now the points do an excellent job in our cars. |
#47
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Sorry for continuing this tangent, but is this article now out of date?
(I have it saved to my computer) link to PDF Link to this quote Quote:
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1970 Formula 400 Carousel Red paint on Black standard interior A no-engine, no-transmission, no-wheel option car. Quite likely one of few '70 Muncie three speed Formula 400's left. 1991 Grand Am: 14.4 @ 93.7mph (DA corrected) (retired DD, stock appearing) 2009 Cobalt SS: 13.9 @ 103mph (current DD; makes something north of 300hp & 350ft/lbs) |
#48
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Those numbers are still available through Napa here although they are $25 a piece now, at least here anyway. So that information may be a bit dated.
I haven't looked at an Echlin set in years and never use them, but the biggest thing I look for that wasn't mentioned despite all the info in that article, is whether or not the contacts are of solid material. Most of the cheaper $20 sets I've seen have a hollow center. Which is why I've stuck with Accel all these years, plus they have a 100% 35 year long track record with me so I have no interest in experimenting. However, next time I'm at Napa I'll ask them to pull a set and have a look out of curiosity. I can also mic the diameter of the contact on Accel points that I have here if interested for comparison. |
#49
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GM part number 8101 Accel 23 ounce set.....mic'd the contact at .188"
Also have a 32 ounce set here that also mic'd at .188" What I see that is interesting in comparison to your chart is that the only 32 ounce sets offered by Echlin only have .152" contacts, while the Accel's I have here are .188" I use the 23 ounce sets here 99% of the time, even in our solid lifter 302, and despite that article stating the 24 ounce Echlin's are only good to 5500 rpm, I run the 23 ounce Accel's to 7,000 without issue. |
#50
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good to know.
good service parts are actually harder for me to get than you - so I need to know all this stuff before ordering anything.
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1970 Formula 400 Carousel Red paint on Black standard interior A no-engine, no-transmission, no-wheel option car. Quite likely one of few '70 Muncie three speed Formula 400's left. 1991 Grand Am: 14.4 @ 93.7mph (DA corrected) (retired DD, stock appearing) 2009 Cobalt SS: 13.9 @ 103mph (current DD; makes something north of 300hp & 350ft/lbs) |
#51
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With an MSD 6AL box a set of points will last forever. I didn’t grow up with points so I have never really used them. Always switched to HEI or MSD. The Holley Dual Sync first generation was manufactured by Holley and had a huge cap and was tall for a Pontiac distributor. The second generation is manufactured by MSD and some of the other boards said they were better so I called summit and got them to let me switch even though I’ve had my first one for more than a year. This is my first foray into fuel injection and timing control. I’m also a little worried about the composite gear on the roller cam wearing out and leaving me stranded so I guess I will keep a brass one in my bag of tricks.
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468/TKO600 Ford thru bolt equipped 64 Tempest Custom. Custom Nocturne Blue with black interior. |
#52
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Quote:
Jon.
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"Good carburetion is fuelish hot air". "The most expensive carburetor is the wrong one given to you by your neighbor". If you truly believe that "one size fits all" try walking a mile in your spouse's shoes! Owner of The Carburetor Shop, LLC (of Missouri). Current caretaker of the remains of Stromberg Caburetor, and custodian of the existing Carter and Kingston carburetor drawings. |
#53
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Thank you John!
I was wondering if anyone caught that. Or bothered to notice I said it and let it sink in and care. Lots of things occur in 50 years on these cars. |
#54
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Pertronix
I'm a fan of the M&H electric "Breakerless SE" point replacement. I've used them in every GM pointed distributor for several years and the only problem I've ever had was I had to retighten module. They take about an hour to install and use the same single wire the points use. I highly recommend!
http://www.breakerless.com/ |
#55
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I'm running 2, in a 63 Cat, 389 and 66 GP 421, both installed for 10+ years. No issues and I drive my cars a decent amount of miles. Finger's crossed but I feel comfortable.
1963 Catalina Safari 1966 Grand Prix 1992 Grand Prix Petty Edition
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'63 Catalina Safari, Silverleaf Green / Cameo Ivory, nice options, 4 speed '66 Grand Prix, Marina Turquoise, 421 HO, many options, 4 speed My Garage Tarheel Tigers Pontiac Club of Raleigh, NC |
#56
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Pertronix durability
Quote:
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1978 Trans Am WS6 Original owner 1934 Chevrolet Master 5 Wdo 1964 Corvette roadster loaded including A/C 1964 Chevrolet Suburban/Carryall 4X4 1972 Chevrolet C10 "Highlander" 1978 GMC Jimmy 2WD Slammed SOLD! 1992 Pontiac Grand Prix coupe |
#57
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I bought a Pertronix points conversion kit, the style with the magnet ring mounted under the rotor. The magnet ring had 0.090" runout which is impossible to use considering the recommended gap is a fraction of that. Junk.
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--------------------------------------------------------- Mike B 1968 Firebird |
#58
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I ran a Delco Transistor ignition distributor as a trigger unit only to an MSD 6 box hidden behind the glovebox. Kind of the best of both worlds. Looks stock with the nice iron distributor and the pic-up coil set-up good to high RPM, 6200-6500 RPM. All the benefits of an MSD including the rev limiter.
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#59
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I have installed a pertronix ignitor in my Judge distributor, it has worked well but the hood tach no longer works. Has anybody solved this problem? Otherwise back to points!
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#60
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I wouldn't put pertronix in my lawn mower. Tried it in 2 different cars both quit, went back to points in them.
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