[Scott Stoneburg]

Have you checked to make sure the rockers are not hitting those valve covers? They are not very tall, or they dont look like they are. I would stack a 2nd gasket under them just to check.

[gtofreek]

Rockers were not hitting the valve covers.

[Scott Stoneburg]

Originally Posted by gtofreek

Rockers were not hitting the valve covers.

Figured that would have been checked. So have you tried pulling all the plugs, spinning it over with the starter to see if you can hear anything?
Is everybody sure it wasnt making noise on the dyno. All the dyno videos I see show the operator in a different room from the engine.

[ponchjoe]

What hold down are you using on the distributor? Any chance it is bouncing ever so slightly?? Make sure the bolt is not bottoming out in the hole.
I’m reaching here but don’t remember that being thrown out.

[Va68goat]

Scott Stoneburg,

I had Scorpion aluminum rockers at the time of the build but we switched to 1.65 Crower rockers. There were some marks on the old rockers but most likely it was from a tool not from rubbing. Paul set up the rockers and I know he would have verified if the rockers were rubbing or not. Just to be safe, we went ahead and switched them out. Paul suggested the thicker gaskets and we've verified that nothing is touching the valve cover. As for being able to hear the knocking noise on the dyno...I think I should stay off that topic because I've been told two different things. I have my thoughts.

Baron Von Zeppelin,
Thanks for the information. I hope that I don't ever have to have this motor leave Virginia again but that information is appreciated.

Region Warrior,
I'm pretty new to cars but with the damage to the distributor bushing located and repaired but the exact knocking noise is still present, it could be that this is not a part failure issue (Distributor bushing). It's possible that the distributor bushing is the result of something that was missed when the motor was built and when it was torn down. I'm pretty confident that we're close to finding out the real problem. These are the witness marks that were located on the oil pump shaft. We switched out the oil pump and the shaft and the knocking noise was still present. Thats why I don't think this is a timing or ignition issue or a part failure of the distributor bushing. Of course I'm new to cars but I'm just looking at the totality of the circumstances. Believe me...I hope it's something stupid but at point it's just hard to say. I know one thing...me and my friends are spending a lot of time diagnosing a problem.

ponchjoe,
I don't think that has been checked but we'll look at it.

[gtofreek]

Originally Posted by Scott Stoneburg

Figured that would have been checked. So have you tried pulling all the plugs, spinning it over with the starter to see if you can hear anything?
Is everybody sure it wasnt making noise on the dyno. All the dyno videos I see show the operator in a different room from the engine.

There were at least 5 of us throughout the dyno sessions that were standing in the dyno room, right next to the engine while it was idling, and at fast idle. I set the timing several times throughout the dyno sessions also, and I was standing right next to the engine with no ear muffs on with the RPM at 3000. No knocking then either. No one there heard anything unusual. Engine sounded just fine. If this thing had a mechanical knock, it would get louder with RPM, not quieter. You can clearly hear during the dyno pull that there is no knocking going on. I think this thing had the gas going bad in the tank and when he added 5 gallons to it, he just ruined 5 gallons of gas, not make a couple gallons of bad gas, better. Bad gas will glue up the intake valve stems in the guides which would make the valve close too slow, which would exactly explain why the engine runs like it does and why the knock is there. To me the knock sounds like a roller lifter smacking the cam lobe because of lash being present, which would happen if the valve is getting stuck in the guide. But Joe knows so much more about this stuff than I do, so I don't know why I'm even wasting my breath.

[grivera]

Who knows what the noise is...but I seriously doubt it’s fuel related. I’ve used older gas in my engine and never had any ticks, taps or knocks as a result

[Va68goat]

gtofreek,
The knocking is the same from day one as to now. The original gas was literally 30 minutes old when I put it in the tank at the shop that did the electrical work. The heads got a clean bill of health when I spent the $170 to have them inspected as you suggested. You spoke to the guys and they said the heads looked great and complimented on your work. I know nothing about cars but I've been forced to learn a lot, thats for sure.

The knocking noise is masked at higher RPM. Feel free to post the video of my motor running on the dyno at idle from outside the booth. I can't hear any knocking when the video is taken from the booth and the motor is taken to 6,200 RPM. So if you're now saying that gas is the problem but the distributor bushing was damaged, the oil pump shaft has witness marks, we switched the oil pump and the shaft but the same noise is present, is gas really the problem? When a listening device is used, the signature of the knock is still present at the distributor! As I said before...I hope this is something that can be easily addressed but it at this point, none of this is making sense, even to a novice like me.

[Sun Tuned]

Off come the heads again...

I never got an answer on the guide material but I'm going to assume bronze just like any other Jew/ aluminum head.

Not in this case but due to the advanced age of some of our customers up the street, coupled with the fact that most have numerous vehicles stored driving regularly is not an option for most. So I get to see first hand how quick this gas we have gets and goes all funky. Which was why I asked in first place. May not be case here, but since most other venues have been beat to death repeatedly, that's about all that's left. One way to find out though...

Pull heads and see.

We've seen several instances of gas heading south and bronze guides that didn't want to play well together. That was why I asked. I've got access to over 200 cars to make notes from. And once folks get them fixed properly it's hard to keep em that way if they aren't driven regularly or the gas completely drained. Kinda a huge pain in the ass.

However the ones that show up or at least the 4-5 worst ones that were shipped in and had issues before or after they got there and were started by delivery truck drivers or salespeople that weren't privy to the stale gas deal... almost all had valve issues and that one yenko bent some junk that cost some money to fix.

Easy to check for.

[Sun Tuned]

Damn spell check don't know what a KRE head is???

Fresh gas won't cause a knock obviously but I can show you plenty what snug guides and stale gas will
do...

[Sun Tuned]

Joe I do hope you figure it out. It should not be this hard at all. I think everyone is about to have a fit to find out what it is. Nobody wants to see issues like this at all.

[Va68goat]

Sun Tuned,

We have a little more testing to do but the heads were inspected and they got a clean bill of health. As for the gas...well, I honestly don't know what to say about blaming it on fuel. I understand Paul not wanting to believe a mistake was made but going from a part failure to now blaming it on fuel is telling in itself. We are all prone to making mistakes but insinuating that a mistake is not a possibility, is the reason I am in this situation.

[Sun Tuned]

I wasn't talking about the first go around.

I meant this last time. How long did you wait from first time till now was what I was asking.

If it stuck a valve and it hit a piston, you'll have a knock for sure allright... I can give u a phone number of a guy with a yenko knows all about that deal.

I'm not defending anybody just trying to help u find it. Y'all looked at everything else 12 times already. Distributor bushing thing was just crappy parts. I got one here I can show u.

The rest of what you described so far I don't know what you could say other than something ain't right. But hell, we all already know that.

[Va68goat]

Sun Tuned,
The gas that is in the car now was put in the tank right before the motor was sent to Paul...not long at all. My concern is that the distributor bushing was the result of another issue. With the witness marks on the oil pump shaft and the knocking occurring even after we switched the pump and the shaft...I think that may be reasonable to assume.

[Scott Stoneburg]

The reason I suggested removing the plugs and turning over with starter is because the noise seems to be more noticeable at lower rpm. With the plugs out the starter will spin the motor over easy. I don't know what else you can try without just removing the motor and pulling apart again.

[68 461 Bird]

At this point I would be pulling that motor out and taking it to a reputable builder on the east coast. There's at least 3 Pontiac engine builders within a days drive from VA you could take it to for a 2nd opinion on the build.

[Sun Tuned]

Oh ok I musta missed something, I thought you had like 7-8 month old gas in there. Still that shouldn't be a deal killer unless the stem clearance was super tight. As Will said I've used old gas before with no issue also.

But the old gas with tight guides is now a nogo today.

2nd opinion is always good.

[64speed]

The engine builder I chose has an excellent reputation, does excellent work and I can attest personally to his work on pontiac engines as well as Caster1. If you want to drive it down here one day and crash the night before heading back you are more than welcome. When the engine is done wayne will break it in in FRONT of you and will not let you leave till you’re square. If you get it back home and put it in the car and it knocks then I don’t know what to tell you.

[Va68goat]

Scott Stoneburg,
Thats a good suggestion and thats on the list to do.

68 461 Bird,
I've thought about that and that is an option but there is not a chance in hell that I'm going walk away from the money I have sent Paul. I've been speaking with Jeff Koerner, so thats a good sign. I have been reaching out to Paul by text but he hasn't returned one. I even sent one last night explaining that we need to work this out away from the forum and that I don't think he's a bad guy. No response from him..So, when Paul chimes in and diverts the attention to everything other than himself...I won't let that happen. Fuel??? Really? It's possible that Paul made a mistake and than missed it again when he tore the motor down and I'm fine with that...lets work this out and figure the problem out. Blame it on fuel??... come on!

Sun Tuned,
Second opinion is an option but with the money I have spent to build the motor, diagnosing the motor and then recently spent to fix the motor yet the same problem exists, there is not a chance I'm walking away from that. I'm a pretty patient guy.. I'm focused on getting this motor fixed with or without Paul being involved but you would think he would want to be part of the solution.

64speed,
Thank you for the information. If it gets down to that, I will reach out. As I said earlier, at this point I'm not willing to walk away from the money that I have spent. I've been communicating with Jeff Koerner and he is actually trying to find someone that can come to my house and check the motor out. I'm appreciative of that and we'll see how that goes.

Paul...I'm sure you're reading this so if you're willing to fly to Virginia and take a look..my offer still stands that you can stay at my house. I won't pay for the ticket but you're welcome to stay here.

[HWYSTR455]

It's not difficult to run a line from a gas can to the fuel pump, and it would eliminate any question of the quality of fuel. You HAVE to eliminate ANY possible cause, it's trial and error, so you have to do ALL the steps to have countable results.

Think about it, you put the new tank in when this escapade first began, almost 2 years ago. THAT gas is still in there, and it has sat for that almost 2 years. Adding gas to bad gas makes all the gas in the tank bad. Did you drain the existing gas out of the tank before you added 'new' gas?

Do I think it's the gas? Not really, but I admit it is a possible cause that hasn't been addressed yet.

If any one of the potential causes that were corrected did not fix the issue doesn't mean that there wasn't any issue with the corrections, like the initial timing and/or the rockers. And don't dismiss that the knock could be caused by a combo if issues. It all needs to be right.

The plugs looked a little hot to me, and maybe a little rich. Maybe post a pic or two of those.

.