[1965gp]

I have a handful of cars and unfortunately they sit for quite a while. I have two questions....

1) I have had this happen to three different cars. The car has fuel pressure and the carb is getting gas. The car will not start, but with starter fluid it will fire right up. Without starter fluid you can flood it.

Use starter fluid a couple of times and the car will run and idle. Pull the car out, shut it off and it will start right back up with a flip of the key. Let the car sit for a few hours and it will not start unless you use starter fluid again?

What changed? It this a temperature thing? I have heard that old gas (4-5 months) can have trouble igniting, but I don’t understand how the cars temp would effect this?


2) I have noticed that after sitting for a while my cars with a quadrajet or 2bbl seem to idle easier and run smoother upon start up than my cars that have a Holley based quick fuel carb on them. Does the Holley design allow old gas to cause more issues than a quadrajet?

I will say the cars with the Holley based Quick Fuel carbs seem to have better throttle response and better performance, but these are also the most modified cars.

Thanks in advance for any replies

Jeremy

[Formulajones]

I have cars that sit for long periods of time as well, both holley and Q-jet equipped. Some don't even have a choke, and I've never had to squirt starting fluid in any of them to get them to start.

Sounds like you have some oddity going on there.

[1965gp]

We definitely have the newer gas with up to (I think) 10% ethanol that could cause an issue, but I wouldn’t think it would be car specific

[Formulajones]

That's all we've ever had was the 10% ethanol stuff for years. It's all we use here, and the octane is only 91.

Curious what you find.

[steve25]

Ethanol evaporates out of gas much faster , yet is harder to light off in cold motor, in fact one thing to keep in mind in regards to starting a cold motor is this fact.

A normal air to fuel ratio with a motor up at temp is 12.5 to 1, but when you go to start a cold motor that ratio is almost completely reversed atleast in regards to getting it to kick.

[Formulajones]

About the only thing I have to offer without knowing more is that since you've just recently switched to 10% ethanol it could be that some of your carbs need recalibrated for the new fuel.

Ethanol enriched gas needs much richer AFR's to run properly, especially a lean calibrated carb. Most of the work needs to be done in the idle circuits and can affect how the car starts, runs, and idles as a result.

[78w72]

im located in the cold midwest & dont notice any problems starting my older q-jet carb'd cars or modern FI daily drivers. we have both non ethanol & 10% fuels in this area, not sure of other states but its nice to have a choice of non ethanol fuels. all my cars start fine when cold or warmed up on either type of fuel. do you have a choke on your cars & are they set right?

now when my carb'd cars sit for a long time, like a week or more they do require a few seconds of cranking to get fuel pumped back into the lines/carb, but aside from that they start ok. sounds like you might have a choke issue or other tuning issue. is this new or have they always been like that?

also, i store my cars for winter & they can sit for 4-6 months, one usually sits for 6-8 months & when its time to start it fires right up once gas gets to the carb so i dont buy the whole "gas goes bad after ~6 months" thing, been doing this for 20+ years... & i dont start them during the winter storage like some do.

[tom s]

Did you check to see if your getting a pump shot from the acc pump.It might have got screwed up and not working?Tom

[Sirrotica]

The OP states it's affecting 3 different cars in the same way, it's probably not one carburetor adjustment. The common thread is using the same gasoline in 3 different cars exhibiting the same starting problems.

Summer fuel does have a problem starting in colder weather as it's a different formulation that will ignite easier when the ambient temps are warmer. Winter fuel is formulated to ignite under colder ambient temperatures. That being said, I also have never had a car that refused to start just because it had old, summer formulated fuel in it. It may be harder to start with older fuel, but generally they will still start, and run once the engine gets warmed up.

I really can offer no explanation for 3 cars doing the same thing, having the common thread of using the same fuels.

I've had some cars and lawn equipment that had really old fuel in them, talking 2-3 or more years old that would still start and run. Since there is no where near me that has non ethanol fuel, I've been using the 10% crap in everything I own for many years, without crutching the initial starting on ether/starting fluid............

For 2 cycle engines I always buy the highest octane fuel I can get, (93 octane) because blending oil with the fuel knocks the octane down. I did have a problem with a Husqvarna saw that a factory rep attributed to regular fuel at one point, causing an engine failure on a new saw. The factory did fix it, but one person I spoke with attributed it to using 87 octane fuel, even though the manual never states that I should use premium fuel, I still do in the 2 stroke engines. The added cost in a gallon of fuel is pretty negligible. I also buy the factory Husqvarna oil just to be sure it's what they call for in case of another warranty claim can't be disputed if I'm using their recommended oil. I was using another oil other than Husqvarna oil, that was also brought up during this engine failure warranty conversation.

[android 211]

Are the chokes operating right? Won't start cold unless with starter fluid? Runs OK when warm but after cooling off won't start again? Sounds like a choke problem. My lawn equipment works OK on ethanol gas when its new but after a year or two it starts to give me problems. I switched to ethanol free gas - no more problems.

[carbking]

GUESSING

I think it is the gasoline.

As a test, pick the carb on which the airhorn is the easiest to remove. The next time you go to start one that has been sitting, try removing the airhorn, removing all of the fuel (if any) left in the carburetor bowl with a paper towel, fill the bowl with fresh gasoline, replace the airhorn, pump the footfeed three times, and attempt to start the car.

Guessing it will fire right up, and maybe stall after the fresh gas in the bowl is used, and old gas enters the carb from the tank.

Ethanol gets a lot of bad press (and deserves most of it - opinion), but I have exactly the same issue with non-ethanol gasoline after a few weeks. It just won't fire on its own. Get the engine running, and it will burn. Gas in some parts of the country is worse than others. Ours is horrible!

Jon.

[Shiny]

On this topic... anyone have experience with this product? Does this stuff actually "restore" old gas as claimed? I have used Sta-bil in the past but really don't know if it does anything useful.

[1965gp]

So I jumped in the 70 GTO today- quadrajet, mechanical fuel pump. Cranked twice to get gas to the carb and it fired right up on gas bought at the same gas station. The car had been sitting for about 3-4 weeks.

The 72 bird with the Quick Fuel carb ran great about three months ago and has an electric choke on it- this is the car that needed the starter fluid to fire yesterday.

Perhaps the gas at this location is inconsistent?

We have a place outside of town that (proudly!) sells ethanol free gas. I have several gas cans- I may go fill some up and see if it makes a difference.

I go to the same gas station almost all the time, but who knows where they get their gas.

I live in Houston so I don’t think ambient temperature or humidity would be a factor- or it would effect all of the cars right?

On the three 2bbl cars I have no problems, the FI cars have no issues, although they sometimes idle rough for 60-90 seconds when fired up after sitting.

[Sirrotica]

Having owned a service station, and also driven a tanker that delivered fuel to retail outlets I have a little background in fuel and what happens to it before it gets to the end user.

That gasoline could have come from anywhere, it's in pipelines to be distributed to the wholesale depots, which take it from pipelines, pump it into giant holding tanks, and then it's blended at the loading racks with whatever additive that branded wholesaler sells before it's pumped into the tanker trucks.

Whoever is selling gasoline for the lowest price is who the wholesaler buys from. It's supposed to be tested for specific gravity to be sure it falls within the specs of that wholesaler. Sometimes if it's not right on the mark, it still gets sent to retailers, because who is going to test it? No one tests it to make sure it's exactly what they ordered, if it runs in their equipment, that's as close to testing as it gets.
.
Believe me, there is a lot of fuel sold that is below specs, and no one is any the wiser, it's a pretty lax system, with little oversight.

[77 TRASHCAN]

I worked for a school bus dealer for 14 years. Went to work there in 98. We had/sold tons of old Chevy 366/Holley 4 Bbl carbureted buses. Hundreds! If you ever saw that line of blown up/ burnt trucks/cars/buses that tried to escape from Kuwait, back then.... odds are some of the buses came from the dealer I worked at...

Lots of those buses would sit for a while before being sold. They were a pain to get started. First most had dead batteries. Then depending on who was trying to start them, they often made things worse, flooding them.
The seemingly best method was to make sure the engine would spin fairly well, THEN (without pumping the accelerator pedal even once) turning the engine over 4-5 seconds, (to fill the carb) THEN pump the accelerator pedal once or twice, Turn it over some more, see if it will hit, if not another 4-5 seconds turning over. Pump accelerator 2 more times. This usually works.
Seems like jumping i the seat and frantically turning the key while pumping the gas pedal usually results in flooding. Sounds strange, but getting just a little gas, at a time, into the engine allows it to flood more easily. Just you experience l.

I use the same method to start my 77 TA (Quadrajet of course!) and my 85 Ford F-150 trash truck ( factory gas hog 4 Bbl Holley, 351 HO). One of these days I’m going to haul off a load of scrap to the recycler, and leave everything with them, truck and all.

My starting method works for me, every time. Of course I never use any “E” gas, ever.

[Cliff R]

"The factory did fix it, but one person I spoke with attributed it to using 87 octane fuel, even though the manual never states that I should use premium fuel, I still do in the 2 stroke engines."

For sure higher octane will help your 2 stroke power equipment but P/C failure is directly related to being too lean on the "H" speed screw which causes excessive engine RPM's, high EGT's, and less lubricant all at the same time. This melts/smears some aluminum from the piston over the rings on the exhaust side and it's DONE. For at least 20 years now the factory has been installing limiter caps on the carburetor adjustment screws, some are even non-adjustable, or take "special" tools to adjust them. This is all thanks to the EPA and causes a lot of engine failures.

This new fuel also looses octane when sitting for long periods of time making start-ups difficult. I had a Honda generator brought here a while back, only used once a few years ago after a storm took out the power here for over a week. It refused to start and I just figured the carb was gummed up, but it was clean. I ended up dumping the fuel (owner had put Stabil in it) outside the shop in the gravel and tried to light it on fire. It simply would NOT burn, at least with simple attempts to light it which typically would have you running for your life with good gasoline. We ended up getting it to light with a propane torch but it burned very slowly, more like kerosene that gasoline. Anyhow I put fresh fuel in the generator and it roared to life.

There are also other things that can lead to poor cold starts, first and foremost is the accl pump in the carburetor. Many pump seals will shrink when the carb dries up and it may take a few minutes of contact with fuel before they start working. Without some pump shot cold starts are nearly impossible even if you have fuel in the carburetor bowl.

So combine poor pump shot or lack of it with gas that has lost it's ability to burn well and you will have difficult cold starts in that particular vehicle......Cliff

[Mr Anonymous]

Mike Garblik explained the power equipment factory tune setup process. "Adjust the mixture screw until it runs perfectly, then lean it out TWO TURNS!"

When fixing power equipment, I try to xref a replacement carburetor that fits and has a main mixture adjustment. It can take some time searching online parts manuals, but having it run spot on after you're done is the hot ticket. Most critical on snow blowers that are crazy lean at 70*F and are expected to run correctly at 20*F. A fixed jet carb sucks at this, pun intended.

On car carbs that I know are empty or nearly empty and the engine needs to start with little cranking (think cam break in), I put gasoline in an empty 80-90 quart bottle and use it to fill the carb up some thru the bowl vent. Its not perfect, but it will work.

[1965gp]

I am going to play with it today and see what happens. I’m pretty sure the car is getting gas, I’m hoping it’s just poor/old gas. Interesting that both my 72 TA and 69 Charger are having the same issue at the same time.

[track73]

Most of the time when I have had a small engine not start after a long period of non use, it was because the fuel evaporated and left a residue that gummed up the main jet. I use Lucas gas additive to stabilize the fuel in my gas can.

[goat guy]

I always put stable in my gas every year. Sometimes I just pour in several ounces and other times I put in a gas can and mix it with fresh gas. I do have a couple cars that when they sit for a long time, I have to spray a little carb cleaner or stating fluid to get then to turn over. Then they are fine on the gas. Even if I go back in a couple days. Some of my cars sit for a long time. Just mt 2 cents.