[Formulajones]

Originally Posted by PAUL K

That's a really long post.

LOL I was thinking the same thing when you quoted it, I was like "oh chit it's on here again"

[PAUL K]

Originally Posted by Formulajones

LOL I was thinking the same thing when you quoted it, I was like "oh chit it's on here again"

I didn't want an confusion as to which post I was referring to.

[Formulajones]

Originally Posted by PAUL K

I didn't want an confusion as to which post I was referring to.

...

[tom s]

WAY TOO long!Tom

[Cliff R]

+2

Degreeing a cam isn't overly complicated, but does involve EXACT precision, like most other things involved with engine building.

I didn't bother reading all the info above, but folks doing should should make sure that determining ICL is NOT the same as finding the degrees BTDC of the #1 intake lobe at .050" tappet lift. Here I do both, ICL first, then degrees BTDC to verify the work and how accurately the cam is ground. In theory if you nail down ICL then the intake open point @ .050" should be where the cam card is telling us.

PS: I probably would have read more of the info, but I've been busy devoting the last few days to pulling down every engine I own and turning at least 7 of the 8 rods around so the pistons face the WRONG direction!..........

[P@blo]

Originally Posted by Cliff R

+2

Degreeing a cam isn't overly complicated, but does involve EXACT precision, like most other things involved with engine building.

I didn't bother reading all the info above, but folks doing should should make sure that determining ICL is NOT the same as finding the degrees BTDC of the #1 intake lobe at .050" tappet lift. Here I do both, ICL first, then degrees BTDC to verify the work and how accurately the cam is ground. In theory if you nail down ICL then the intake open point @ .050" should be where the cam card is telling us.

PS: I probably would have read more of the info, but I've been busy devoting the last few days to pulling down every engine I own and turning at least 7 of the 8 rods around so the face the WRONG direction!..........

You are a fast learner Cliff. I called my machinist and requested the same work be done on my junk and he hung up on me. Maybe Mike can provide the racer guy who built his engine as he clearly knows what he is doing...

These threads seesaw back and forth from asking for help to trying to alter reality. Really drags things out but I am more to blame for keeping reading these type of threads. Seems like we have multiple Zcode400s on the forums these days.

[Stan Weiss]

Yes to long for me to read. lol

Before you can degree a cam you need to find TDC. Please explain how you did this?

Stan

[NeighborsComplaint]

No self-respecting moonshiner ever degreed a camshaft ... line up the dots.

The harmonic damper was probably damaged when the moonshiners ran off the cliff ... the legend lives on and on and on.

[Cliff R]

I'm NOT reading any of it. I tried to help out many pages ago but sadly was unable to make a dent in the OP's armor.

I've been at this deal over 45 years, over 20 of it running a FULL TIME business dealing thousands of customers. When I closed the books on the working side of the shop almost three years ago I had completed just shy of 13,000 work orders. Most of that was carb work, but I also did quit a few engines, transmissions, distributors, set up some diff's, custom tuning, and did a few engine installs and swaps.

Over the years I had quite a few folks come in here asking me to help out with their "project" car. I learned very quickly to avoid any customer who wanted a "quick fix", "cheap fix", or ever uttered the words "just get it going for now (cheap) and I'll fix it right later". They NEVER do it right later. I don't care about that, however IF you take on their half-ars repair and charge them for it, the very first time they have any issues at all you will get a call telling you how it all worked fine BEFORE you touched it. Bottom line and getting to the point, NEVER, EVER short cut a job, bandaid fix it, or just patch it up so the car can keep going till you can do it better. ALWAYS bite the bullet, even if it's not in the budget to do it right the first time and while it's right in front of you.......FWIW.......

[TRADERMIKE 2012]

Originally Posted by Cliff R

I'm NOT reading any of it. I tried to help out many pages ago but sadly was unable to make a dent in the OP's armor.

I've been at this deal for over 45 years, over 20 of it running a FULL-TIME business dealing thousands of customers. When I closed the books on the working side of the shop almost three years ago, I had completed just 13000 work orders. Most of that was carb work, but I also did quite a few engines, transmissions, distributors, set up some diff's, custom tuning, and did a few engine installs and swaps.

Over the years I have had quite a few folks come here asking me to help out with their "project" car. I learned very quickly to avoid any customer who wanted a "quick fix", "cheap fix", or ever uttered the words "just get it going for now (cheap) and I'll fix it right later". They NEVER do it right later. I don't care about that, however IF you take on their half-ars repair and charge them for it, the very first time they have any issues at all you will get a call telling you how it all worked fine BEFORE you touched it. Bottom line and getting to the point, NEVER, EVER cut a job short, band aid fix its or just patch it up so the car can keep going till you can do it better. ALWAYS bite the bullet, even if it's not in the budget to do it right the first time and while it's right in front of you.......FWIW.......

In this case I never say always and I never say never, I started with a second-hand project and it will always be a second-hand project. For that very reason and the reason that I am learning, at the same time, I am moving slowly and surely so that I may gain the experience you have already obtained in your lifetime. I built a 327 ci from scratch and did all the things you're talking about in the correct order only to have it stolen because the person that I commissioned the install into my 1967 Chevy flat windshield Van left the Engine in the van outside the building when he was told to put the engine in the building if not the van, he might have well stolen it himself, but I found out I was set up from the start by a tow truck driver , who ended up dead anyway. I must be able to learn from the mistakes of my predecessor, that began this project and cut the corners you speak of, not me. I am fixing his mistakes first and foremost; I thought you would have figured that out by now.

By the way the Vehicle is finished and tested in the driveway and I can say at this time that I am impressed with both the Pontiac and 421 cooling mods. As I have gained about 30 degrees cooler Engine temp. without using the Side Kick nor the Elec. fan in front of the AC condenser in drive way tests with the hood down and by using an Elec. squirrel cage fan, external to the vehicle, blowing air through the Radiator as in real world moving conditions. Soon to come are the test results coming up this weekend as I plan on highway driving, Plus, I have been gathering data as I tested in the driveway over the past 2 weeks.

For what it is worth, I like to repair everything in the area that needs repairing as you do. However, attacking the lower end of this motor is not an easy task and will take my saving the money to rebuild the lower end, like another grand with turning the Crank, new Bearings, Rings, Seals and possibly Pistons and Rods that need replacements as well. The Engine needs to be pulled, Block cleaned and Magnafluxed, Crank needs line- bored as well as the Cam, new rear main seal etc... "Not now later please".

When I commit myself to Degreeing the Cam to this forum, I will eventually get to it, better late than never and whatever the results. likewise, I said I would pull the Heads and while I was there, I performed the Pontiac and 421 cooling mods. You people said I can do better, so don't mock me for trying and succeeding please. My goal was to not have to use the Side-kick and Elec. fan out front of the condenser, except in an emergency like Parade driving or stuck in traffic, I have accomplished this finally. I have yet tried to run this vehicle without rec-89-90, instead I will be using unleaded 93 octain with 10 percent Alcohol in it, to see if the motor will vapor lock, it has not done so, since I doubled the fuel lines forward, used a by-pass filter to the fuel tank and removed the Alcohol from the fuel I burn.

You said this: "Over the years I have had quite a few folks come here asking me to help out with their "project" car. I learned very quickly to avoid any customer who wanted a "quick fix", "cheap fix", or ever uttered the words "just get it going for now (cheap) and I'll fix it right later". They NEVER do it right later. I don't care about that, however IF you take on their half-ars repair and charge them for it, the very first time they have any issues at all you will get a call telling you how it all worked fine BEFORE you touched it. Bottom line and getting to the point, NEVER, EVER cut a job short, band aid fix its or just patch it up so the car can keep going till you can do it better. ALWAYS bite the bullet, even if it's not in the budget to do it right the first time and while it's right in front of you".......FWIW...

I pulled my car into a Muffler shop for service to the Exhaust system, concurrently the starter had an Elec. problem. My roommate is an Elec. / Electronics master who was there also. The owner sold me a starter for the price it would have cost me to get towed. Great if I made it home. Mind you, if the owner would have let my roommate inspect his man's work, he would have been able to fix the wires that was the cause, in the first place. Now, the owner asked me if the starters Elec. was the problem or was the issue prior to coming to his shop. I told him yes it was, he said that most people say that he caused the problem and he was responsible for fixing it and he commended me on my honesty. But I never made it home and my roommate ended up repairing it on the side of the road anyway. So, the owner misdiagnosed the problem and had his guy install a new starter with the old wires "not" individually wrapped then taped off in a harness correctly. So, it works both ways and is the reason we do our own work on this car. The owner put an R+R person on an Elec. problem that had no right to evaluate an Elec. issue in the first place. I was in a jam and needed to get home, I paid for his professional ability and got taken. We had to fix it ourselves anyway after purchasing a part we did not need.

[Cliff R]

+2

I figured that out quite a few pages ago, but still kept trying to help.

Degreeing a camshaft is simple, no need to make it complicated. Most novice/inexperienced engine "builders" get into trouble with mulitple keyway timing sets because they are either not very accurate or the directions are flawed, or a little of both. The 3 keyway variety with the cast iron sprockets are junk right to start with. I wouldn't let one within 20' of any engine I was building.......you can watch one stretch out if you stare at it long enough!

Seriously, when using stock cams, Melling in particular they are very accurate and if you are using a stock type Melling or Cloyes timing set and set it dot to dot it's unlikely you'll need to move it around at all. For builds like this one there is absolutely no need to do much more than put a 3/4" wide stock timing set on it, dot to dot, and move on. At most I'd turn the engine thru and watch the #1 intake lifter to make sure it starts moving a few degrees BTDC. That's close enough and good enough for this type of build.

I'd be 100,000 times more worried about having 7 pistons facing the WRONG direction and wondering even more about connecting rod orientation as well. Assuming all the pistons were pressed on the rods correctly you can't end up with one facing the right direction and seven the wrong way without a connecting rod or two in backwards. This potential issue would be at the TOP of my list of things to correct while the engine was out instead of knurling valve guides and Googling cam installation to the brink of extinction when all I needed to do at most was install a stock timing set, maybe a 2 degree offset key on the cam sprocket, and keep moving. I say this because every single "RAIV" cam I've installed with a stock timing set dot to dot has been within 1 degree of 112 ICL and the intake open point .050" a few degrees BTDC.

Not trying to be overly critical here, but with this type of build, (basicaly a backyard "special" with the emphasis on just getting it done on a shoestring budget), I'd want it as good as I could get it without spending money or time in areas that don't need it. Plus we've got enough compression here, too much quench, and hot climate that advancing the cam could bring more negatives into the equation that just leaving it in the stock position........FWIW........

[Stan Weiss]

Originally Posted by Cliff R

+2

I figured that out quite a few pages ago, but still kept trying to help.

Degreeing a camshaft is simple, no need to make it complicated. Most novice/inexperienced engine "builders" get into trouble with mulitple keyway timing sets because they are either not very accurate or the directions are flawed, or a little of both. The 3 keyway variety with the cast iron sprockets are junk right to start with. I wouldn't let one within 20' of any engine I was building.......you can watch one stretch out if you stare at it long enough!

Seriously, when using stock cams, Melling in particular they are very accurate and if you are using a stock type Melling or Cloyes timing set and set it dot to dot it's unlikely you'll need to move it around at all. For builds like this one there is absolutely no need to do much more than put a 3/4" wide stock timing set on it, dot to dot, and move on. At most I'd turn the engine thru and watch the #1 intake lifter to make sure it starts moving a few degrees BTDC. That's close enough and good enough for this type of build.

I'd be 100,000 times more worried about having 7 pistons facing the WRONG direction and wondering even more about connecting rod orientation as well. Assuming all the pistons were pressed on the rods correctly you can't end up with one facing the right direction and seven the wrong way without a connecting rod or two in backwards. This potential issue would be at the TOP of my list of things to correct while the engine was out instead of knurling valve guides and Googling cam installation to the brink of extinction when all I needed to do at most was install a stock timing set, maybe a 2 degree offset key on the cam sprocket, and keep moving. I say this because every single "RAIV" cam I've installed with a stock timing set dot to dot has been within 1 degree of 112 ICL and the intake open point .050" a few degrees BTDC.

Not trying to be overly critical here, but with this type of build, (basicaly a backyard "special" with the emphasis on just getting it done on a shoestring budget), I'd want it as good as I could get it without spending money or time in areas that don't need it. Plus we've got enough compression here, too much quench, and hot climate that advancing the cam could bring more negatives into the equation that just leaving it in the stock position........FWIW........

Cliff,
How can both of these statements be correct? I would go with the second.

From Cam Dr data (Supplied by Ken Crocie / H-O Enterprises) of the Crane version of the 041

CAM_______Lift______Opens___Closes__Duration
_________________Deg_BTDC__Deg_ABDC_____________Ar ea____ICL
_________0.00100____45.82_|_119.83_|_345.65_|__26. 08_|_127.01
_________0.00350____35.55_|__98.83_|_314.38_|__26. 05_|_121.64
_________0.00400____34.21_|__96.55_|_310.76_|__26. 04_|_121.17
_________0.00600____30.14_|__87.77_|_297.90_|__26. 00_|_118.82

_________0.05000_____3.82_|__47.81_|_231.64_|__25. 27_|_112.00

Stan

[TRADERMIKE 2012]

Originally Posted by Cliff R

+2

I figured that out quite a few pages ago, but still kept trying to help.

Degreeing a camshaft is simple, no need to make it complicated. Most novice/inexperienced engine "builders" get into trouble with multiple keyway timing sets because they are either not very accurate or the directions are flawed, or a little of both. The 3-keyway variety with the cast iron sprockets are junk right to start with. I wouldn't let one within 20' of any Engine I was building.......you can watch one stretch out if you stare at it long enough!

Seriously, when using stock cams, Melling in particular, they are very accurate and if you are using a stock type Melling or Cloyes timing set and set it dot to dot it's unlikely you'll need to move it around at all. For Engine builds like this one there is absolutely no need to do much more than put a 3/4" wide stock timing set on it, dot to dot, and move on. At most I'd turn the engine through and watch the #1 intake lifter to make sure it starts moving a few degrees BTDC. That's close enough and good enough for this type of build.

I'd be 100,000 times more worried about having 7 pistons facing the WRONG direction and wondering even more about connecting rod orientation as well. Assuming all the pistons were pressed on the rods correctly you can't end up with one facing the right direction and seven the wrong way without a connecting rod or two in backwards. This potential issue would be at the TOP of my list of things to correct while the engine was out instead of knurling valve guides and Googling cam installation to the brink of extinction when all I needed to do at most was install a stock timing set, maybe a 2-degree offset key on the cam sprocket, and keep moving. I say this because every single "RAIV" cam I've installed with a stock timing set dot to dot has been within 1 degree of 112 ICL and the intake open point .050" a few degrees BTDC.

Not trying to be overly critical here, but with this type of build, (basically a back-yard "special" with the emphasis on just getting it done on a shoestring budget), I'd want it as good as I could get it without spending money or time in areas that don't need it. Plus, we've got enough compression here, too much quench, and hot climate that advancing the cam could bring more negatives into the equation that just leaving it in the stock position........FWIW........

Your reply: "Plus, we've got enough compression here, too much quench, and hot climate that advancing the cam could bring more negatives into the equation that just leaving it in the stock position"

Mikes Ans: "This is why I have decided to pull the extra timing out of this Cam/particular build. But I also needed to replace the Harmonic Balancer and rebuild the Heads, first, this is my priority, you must agree that before I rebuild the lower end, these current issues take precedent, please say I am right, so I can believe in you. The Pistons have been installed backwards since 1968 and for a reason that has been authenticated to function in race applications by your peers. The Pistons can hold out a little longer! I am not cheap nor am I working on a shoe string budget, instead I like to believe that I prioritize repairs and due to my lack of experience takes me longer than you. Keep in mind you made the same mistakes that I made first, correct? Let me mature in the automotive business in my own time. I don't like to do things twice. You said it yourself: " Don't be overly critical here". You have been a great help and I hope you continue to assist me.

The question is:" why do you people say "dot to dot" when that is a Chevy timing Gear installation procedure, "not" Pontiac. Are Pontiac Timing Gears installed @ 12'-0'clock each with number one intake and Exhaust Valves in the closed/compression stroke position on TDC? You are confusing us. Between Timing an Ignition system with the Vacuum plugged off when tuning, these two important things to do are Offen misunderstood and I want to clarify that here with the truth, lot of misinformation going on in these forums.

[JSchmitz]

I think the horse has expired...

[TRADERMIKE 2012]

Originally Posted by JSchmitz

I think the horse has expired...

A horse is a horse OfCourse OfCourse, Mr. Ed said it best, Wilber (horse noise)

[Cliff R]

That's pretty close to the specs Melling provides on the SPC-8 cam:

https://www.melling.com/wp-content/u...ck-294-304.pdf

For what's going on here worrying about where the cam is at would not be a priority for me. FIRST I'd find out why I have pistons and possibly connecting rods installed incorrectly, then move on to less important details like moving the cam around when it would be just fine installing it "dot to dot" with a good timing set........IMHO.....

One thing to keep in mind here and I don't know anyone else who has done it. I moved a RAIV cam 4 times in my 455 engine and street and track tested it at each position. 107, 109, 111 and 113ICL. The only place the engine even started to feel a little "lazy" was clear back at 113ICL. Even there it ran fine at the track and drove fine on the street.

This was in a car capable of DEADLY consistent drag strip runs with perfect traction. I saw less than a tenth loss in ET and less than 2mph on top end. You can't tell me that the OP would notice any difference anyplace no matter where that cam was in stalled in this particular build. Straight up.

I'd also mention that advancing the cam beyond two degree slowed the car down and hurt 60' times even though it is regugitated on these threads that "advancing the cam makes more low end torque". In reality these engines are pretty sensitive to the intake closing point and following blanket claims like that can cost us power and vehicle performance. Without direct testing we wouldn't even know it as the engine "felt" peppy, slightly more vacuum at idle speed, responsive and quick to rev at 107ICL, but with good traction at the track it ran WORSE at every point on the run..........so much for theory, and "seat of the pants" testing with these things.......FWIW.......

[TRADERMIKE 2012]

Originally Posted by Cliff R

That's pretty close to the specs Melling provides on the SPC-8 cam:

https://www.melling.com/wp-content/u...ck-294-304.pdf

For what's going on here worrying about where the cam is at would not be a priority for me. FIRST, I'd find out why I have pistons and possibly connecting rods installed incorrectly, then move on to less important details like moving the cam around when it would be just fine installing it "dot to dot" with a good timing set........IMHO.....

One thing to keep in mind here and I don't know anyone else who has done it. I moved a RAIV cam 4 times in my 455 engine and street and track tested it at each position. 107, 109, 111 and 113ICL. The only place the engine even started to feel a little "lazy" was clear back at 113ICL. Even there it ran fine at the track and drove fine on the street.

This was in a car capable of DEADLY consistent drag strip runs with perfect traction. I saw less than a tenth loss in ET and less than 2mph on top end. You can't tell me that the OP would notice any difference anyplace no matter where that cam was installed in this particular build. Straight up.

I'd also mention that advancing the cam beyond two degrees slowed the car down and hurt 60' times even though it is regurgitated on these threads that "advancing the cam makes more low end torque". In reality these engines are pretty sensitive to the intake closing point and following blanket claims like that can cost us power and vehicle performance. Without direct testing we wouldn't even know it as the engine "felt" peppy, slightly more vacuum at idle speed, responsive and quick to rev at 107ICL, but with good traction at the track it ran WORSE at every point on the run..........so much for theory, and "seat of the pants" testing with these things.......FWIW.......

You say: "One thing to keep in mind here and I don't know anyone else who has done it. I moved a RAIV cam 4 times in my 455 engine and street and track tested it at each position. 107, 109, 111 and 113 ICL. The only place the engine even started to feel a little "lazy" was clear back at 113 ICL. Even there it ran fine at the track and drove fine on the street.

Mike would like to know: "Do you remember what the operating temperatures were like at those advanced Cam timing settings and did that vehicle use AC like mine"?

"Did you have to cool off the Vehicle between race runs due to elevated timing caused tempertures"?

"Did your Vehicle experience Heat soak issues between race runs".

This is what I am experiencing presently, I had to stop and leave the hood open after driving say half an hour, you can't just pull up to a gas station and run water through the radiator like you could in 1975, when I worked in Sears gas station. With the long lines to get gas we had many people come in after waiting on line and we would cool them down leaving their autos running by flowing water across the radiators until it was safe to open the cap to add water to the plastic water bottle and radiator. My sensing heat soak issues is why I might need to re-introduce Water Wetter back into my Block. This product keeps the water molecules from foaming up next to the cylinder walls and keeps the air bubbles from forming and sticking to the cylinder walls cavitating like a Boats Prop in the water, slipping and causing aeration around the Prop for example. As long as the Friction/Heat from the pistons going up and down can conduct or convection to surrounding air, through the Iron Block or through the oil that can move the heat to coolers and to the water passages to the radiator, one can keep heat soak levels to a minimum.

[TRADERMIKE 2012]

Mikes reply:

(4) At .050", after passing to .100" and back to .050" on each of our tests we came up with these degree results:

109, 109.5, 110, 113, 115, 116, 113, 111.5, 110.5, 111.5, 111.5, 111.5, END.


This is the last thing that I was told to do above, we first found TDC and then we degreed in the New Cam timing using the 4th advanced key. We measured at .050", on each side of the Intake lobe, after removing the Timing cover for this exercise. I surmise that the above readings bring me to a safe 112 Intake C/L, just as the Cam milled the Intake from the factory, it is like the advance key did nothing and I am degreed back to straight up installation? I deduced this setting was "OK' and re-installed the timing cover. I hope for the last time.

My roommate took these readings and perhaps he took too many, but if he had stopped at only two, I would think that the new Cam position was at 109 or 109.5 which are the first two numbers on the list. Since he has more readings, how am I to interpret them? What is your interpretation of these figures? Since I am the Novis, I can only speculate. Also, I remember that someone stated that the numbers will vary, boy where you right.

I am past checking the lower end at this time, because we hooked up the Block to the mounts and secured the hardware. Since this Engine has run, God knows how many miles, I truly believe that I have time before I need to address the lower end. Someone pointed out that the Pistons are in backwards for race reason with factual data to back it up, made me think. Yes, this data is taken out of the hidden URL format as well as the Math, so my over 24,000 viewers can see it. This does not necessarily mean that I am going to continue to do this, as in the past, I learned my lesson when the administration shut down every post that I was in. I thank the current people involved with this discussion for helping with my decision.

This does not in any way mean you're wrong, it is just my way of doing things. Please give me the latitude that I need, even if you think I am wrong. I have leapt over every hurdle and so on... to get to where I am today with this vehicle. Never once have I had to go back over my work, once I've committed myself and was satisfied that my work was done to my satisfaction I moved on. This Piston thing is last on my list, because it does not affect me now, this does not mean that the Pistons have not already caused some irreputable damage over the last 50 years or so.

P.S. I Ordered the new Harmonic Balancer Kit from AMES N585 for the sum of $270 delivered, it has a heat-treated Hub and it is brand new, thank you very much. I must go now, because I need to read all that Math stuff that I posted, by for now Mike out!

[PAUL K]

Sounds like a good plan.

[Jay S]

When finding cam timing, if you get a bad reading. Throw that reading out, there is no averaging. It should be repeatable with in a half of degree.

Here are pretty common mistakes that can be made degreeing in a cam.

1. Degree wheel holder was loose on the crank. Degree wheel moves different than the crank every time the engine is turned.

2. Taking degree readings after moving the crank a different direction, you can only take degree readings in the direction the engine runs, otherwise the timing change slack throws the reading off.

3. Lifter was not following the lobe down on the closing side of the ramp.

4. Problems in measurements from the opening and closing side of the base circle. There is often a few thousandths difference between the closing side and the opening side on the base circle. It is called run out. It happens a lot on used cams. Find the ICL .050” from each side of max lift.

5. TDC was not found accurate.