[Keith Seymore]

Originally Posted by mgarblik

Agree completely with this. The time frame the car was built is a big factor too. When talking about Pontiac cars specifically, I wouldn't own one with an automatic prior to 1965. An old GTO with a 2 speed? No thank you. A 61-64 full size with a Slim Jim. Had 2. Sold them BECAUSE of the transmission. Old Bonneville with a 4-speed Hydramatic, again, better than a Slim Jim, but not for me. Once the 400 Turbo entered the picture, it was a game changer for GM. I am sure there is someone out there that will argue the Slim Jim was the greatest automatic transmission ever. I will stick to a manual trans in those older models.

Agree. I pulled the Slim Jim out of my '63 GP and replaced it with a Turbo 400 - from a '67 Riv.

K

[Keith Seymore]

Originally Posted by 4birds

LOL. Why not have both!

For the win!

[Keith Seymore]

Originally Posted by J GLASGO

I assure you, I can get a 4 speed down the track!! Beauty of a 4 speed. Is you don’t have to be flogging it to enjoy it. That said, a 12 second quarter mile in a 4 speed feels like a 10 second ride. While an automatic running 12 seconds is boring.

This is true.

My Chevelle (a 10 second auto car) is linear and smooth, like a jet.

The GTO (a 12 second stick shift) is like having a tiger by the tail, twisting the tail and letting it go.

Each gear change is a significant emotional event.

K

[mgarblik]

Originally Posted by Keith Seymore

For the win!

Man, what a combination. Who could argue with that duo?

[Formulabruce]

Originally Posted by lfdsteve

I think anyone that labels anyone else’s preference as “stupid” should really look in the mirror and decide “Is a muscle car really enough for me, or should I have spent the money on a hair transplant and shoe lifts”
This whole idea of “bragging rights “ is just plain silly. It’s a car…

Ok, lets look at what I said " I like both auto and stick , but the FUN of a stick ENDS in stop and go traffic, and drag racing clutches "just because I'm in there" is just stupid... "
How many people get on ANY Forum and ask "what clutch, what cam," etc. and then the posters seem to always push for more performance, and more clutch, more anything that's purported to be "Better" ??
Some suggestions are good, but some are way overkill for the driver guys car that will NEVER see track time ( 90% of cars) .
Some folks will TRUST a poster take these suggestions and pay for the work
and end up with a clutch they cant even depress, or a cam that doesn't Idle,
or a intake that is just wrong ( but looks good) .
Yes, making bad choices based on info from a racer can make the car worse for drive-ability , and I have had a Few at my house tell me that they made a "stupid" choice based on info that had no application to their car.
Good example is a driver Pontiac, NEVER goes over 5K rpm, but the guy gets talked into a MSD box and yanks the HEI. Summer comes and his MSD box of potted electronics overheats and leaves him stranded... that MSD box did Zero for his drivers performance.
So yeah, some folks make "stupid" choices, or as you call "preference" and many will Admit IT. Note, I never called Anyone "stupid" , and we ALL can make bad choices and Pay for it ..
Having worked at a Pontiac dealership Drive-ability was job #1

[jhein]

Originally Posted by Keith Seymore

This is true.

My Chevelle (a 10 second auto car) is linear and smooth, like a jet.

The GTO (a 12 second stick shift) is like having a tiger by the tail, twisting the tail and letting it go.

Each gear change is a significant emotional event.

K

That's what makes these cars fun. They fight back. LOL.

When I'm driving on my twisty mountain roads, gears are constantly changing. Lateral and linear G's are constantly changing. The lateral Gs are particularly fun because of the crappy 70 seats with no side bolsters whatsoever. It's like a core workout. Constantly bracing myself with my left knee against the door and my right hip against the seat belts (I don't have a console). It definitely doesn't drive itself. I wouldn't want it any other way. I'm just lucky because I have the steering wheel to hang onto. My poor wife is over there with nothing. Yet, whenever I go for a ride, she always wants to come along. LOL.

But, I can see how it would also be nice to have one where you just put it in "D" and go. So maybe I need another one.

[Sirrotica]

Originally Posted by jhein

That's what makes these cars fun. They fight back. LOL.

When I'm driving on my twisty mountain roads, gears are constantly changing. Lateral and linear G's are constantly changing. The lateral Gs are particularly fun because of the crappy 70 seats with no side bolsters whatsoever. It's like a core workout. Constantly bracing myself with my left knee against the door and my right hip against the seat belts (I don't have a console). It definitely doesn't drive itself. I wouldn't want it any other way. I'm just lucky because I have the steering wheel to hang onto. My poor wife is over there with nothing. Yet, whenever I go for a ride, she always wants to come along. LOL.

But, I can see how it would also be nice to have one where you just put it in "D" and go. So maybe I need another one.

Your summation about what it's like to drive a T/A reminds me of this shirt, with a description of the driving experience. I designed it, and my wife , and I used to sell these and others at most major Pontiac events:

Back of shirt:



Front of shirt:

[Matt Meaney]

this guy gets it., and about sums it up for me.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=de_WrJqAbjU

[HoovDaddy]

Originally Posted by Matt Meaney

this guy gets it., and about sums it up for me.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=de_WrJqAbjU

End of debate. That's what it's all about!

[PAUL K]

Originally Posted by Matt Meaney

this guy gets it., and about sums it up for me.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=de_WrJqAbjU

Take note: he had to do that from a roll

[pont3]

Originally Posted by jhein

That's what makes these cars fun. They fight back. LOL.

When I'm driving on my twisty mountain roads, gears are constantly changing. Lateral and linear G's are constantly changing. The lateral Gs are particularly fun because of the crappy 70 seats with no side bolsters whatsoever. It's like a core workout. Constantly bracing myself with my left knee against the door and my right hip against the seat belts (I don't have a console). It definitely doesn't drive itself. I wouldn't want it any other way. I'm just lucky because I have the steering wheel to hang onto. My poor wife is over there with nothing. Yet, whenever I go for a ride, she always wants to come along. LOL.

But, I can see how it would also be nice to have one where you just put it in "D" and go. So maybe I need another one.

See, the thing is, I don't drive around twisty mountain roads threatening my life so a manual means nothing to me. That said, I can appreciate those who get those visceral moments and hold nothing against them.

What bothers me is the way Mecum auctions minimize automatic transmissions as inferior for a sports/muscle car, mostly because over their years of auctioning found that they can increase the value of their own collections by promoting manuals. I like, (not love) manual transmissions and have owned exactly two in my 63 years of life, and can appreciate every thing they do for performance oriented types. I own EIGHT cars, ALL automatic, and I guarantee you that my automatics provide me the same level of satisfaction as your manual does.

I'm not doggin YOU because your post was pretty spot on, but it boggles my mind that when someone (not you) is performance oriented they always choose an automatic. Some of them even install manual valve bodies so they have to manually move the shifter.

[71GP76TA]

I have 2 '66 Corvette roadsters. One is a 327 powerglide the other is a 427 4 speed. The 427 car is a lot more fun to drive because of the 4 speed.. being a 427 with side pipes helps too.. . The 327 car is more of a cruiser and is easier to drive. I have caught myself driving the 327 car more because it is easier to drive and I don't care as much about it.

I bought the 327 car first because it was local and dirt cheap for what it is. The plan was to sell the 327 car right after I bought the 427 car.. But.. I catch myself driving the 327 car now and then. The wife likes driving it too. With that being said.. I will probably be putting the 327 car up for sale next spring.

I would not have kept my '67 Grand Prix as long as I have if it was an automatic. I would not have bought my '75 Trans Am if it was an automatic. My '70 Chevelle SS454 is a 4 speed. I wouldn't have bought it if it was an automatic. I wish my SD and '66 2+2 were sticks but am keeping them even though they are automatics. Nobody wants to buy my WS6 because its an automatic.

My special ordered '21 Scat Pack Widebody is a stick.

Stick cars are generally rarer and do carry more value. .. They are more fun to drive but can get old if you have to daily drive in traffic. I am less apt to hot rod or drive my automatics hard.

I guess lazy people prefer automatics ... Automatics do have their place as far as daily drivers go.

[71GP76TA]

Originally Posted by pont3

See, the thing is, I don't drive around twisty mountain roads threatening my life so a manual means nothing to me. That said, I can appreciate those who get those visceral moments and hold nothing against them.

Threatening your life? Where do you drive your car? Are you not a very good driver?

[pont3]

Originally Posted by 71GP76TA

Threatening your life? Where do you drive your car? Are you not a very good driver?

Stupid question but I'll answer it anyway. I drive my cars on roads and highways occupied by other motorists who deserve the respect of their fellow motorists. I've been driving everything from a manual school bus in high school (as a tenth-grader), and everything in between for over fifty years. Only accident was a rear ender plowing the back end of my '72 GTO in 1997. I am not a race car driver and never raced any of my cars, in ANY venue. Not on the track, not on the street, not in the curves. Just not me. But I LOVE cars and own many of them. I work on my own cars and am quite accomplished as a mechanic, although it is not my credited career. But I can assure you that I will out perform you in driving a manual equipped vehicle of any type, AND, in any situation.

I don't fault people for being thrill-seekers, (actually, I applaud them), for they are the ones responsible for ever better performing vehicles. But driving at excessive speeds around dangerous mountain roads is not my cup of tea.

[Stuart]

It is possible to drive on a curvy road without excessive speed and still have fun.

[tom s]

Mecum has it right.Tom

[jhein]

Originally Posted by Stuart

It is possible to drive on a curvy road without excessive speed and still have fun.

Unequivocally, yes.

But what do you mean by,,, excessive?

[pont3]

Originally Posted by Stuart

It is possible to drive on a curvy road without excessive speed and still have fun.

This is true, and you don't need a manual to have that same effect. I drive to and from work every day on curvy roads, just not in the mountains. I guess you guys have a one-sided lock on what is "fun" for EVERYBODY, and if you dissent, you aren't a car enthusiast. And that spending tens of thousands of dollars more for a manual transmission car is a smart decision. That shows me that those of you who feel that way are driven by the market just the same as Mecum.

[jhein]

Originally Posted by pont3

I don't fault people for being thrill-seekers, (actually, I applaud them), for they are the ones responsible for ever better performing vehicles. But driving at excessive speeds around dangerous mountain roads is not my cup of tea.

Hi Pont3. I appreciate this post and the one before (and others). I'll say I think you're a good guy.

But just so you can understand me a little better, I'm not a crazy person doin' it up "Dukes of Hazzard" style out in the hills here. I'm a civilized person. LOL. Now, I do get a little spunky here and there but I'm a reasonable guy.

And as far as the mountain roads thing, that's where I live. These are the roads I drive all the time.

Anyway, I believe I'm much safer in the hills, away from other drivers, than in any city anywhere.

Most often, when we're out driving, it's just us on the road.. That's a great feeling.

[dataway]

I'll say real men ride sport bikes, talk about full body participation. 180 mph, 3.5 lbs per HP, 9 second quarters off the showroom floor, six speed boxes, mind numbing acceleration and braking. And age isn't a thing, I've seen 75 year old guys that are very proficient on one.