[Baron Von Zeppelin]

Originally Posted by stevesbirds

Can someone with money down produce those SOLD numbers..

I made a listing further back on here of what all the RoundPort cars sold for.
It was just the Hammer prices without the 10% gratuity.

I don't know why they make us log in to see the prices.
Maybe they use that to gain higher number of members since that is mostly what most folks want to see.

It is free to sign up.
Maybe your log in hasn't been processed yet.
There is a link to their search page in the first post on this thread.
Drop Box Kissimmee 2023 , then type in Pontiac, or Judge or GTO
... or the lot number (S123 etc)

['ol Pinion head]

Mark, Full casting number 9792506 would be correct.
Hot wiped & stamped 2506 came later.

[Baron Von Zeppelin]

I think he may also be curious about the potentials on the date codes for 68 production blocks too.

I could get mixed up on the head dates and block dates of 68 and spit out the wrong data about the wrong item.

TheBoss is/was a 68 RamAirGuru
But not necessarily the only one..

[Alan Reed]

Reading this thread, I see it has transitioned from an auction price thread to a re-stamping, re-bodying, re-tagging thread.

Interesting to see the varying and changing ideas and opinions on this subject.

I have been accurately described as a guy with an opinion about most things, and this subject is no exception, but I will not share my opinion here.

But, I do have a question for anyone willing to reply. I am an amateur coin collector and am considering what may described as a coin restoration.

I have this valuable 1913 Buffalo nickel that has had a hard life. It has had extensive use and circulation resulting in significant wear to the front and back of the coin. It is barely recognizable as a 1913 nickel. I suspect if this coin were made from steel, it would have rust, maybe even rust perforation.

Restoring my 1913 nickel is going to be a very big job. I will need to refinish every tiny detail of every shape and surface on both sides. It will take many hours and will be very expensive.

But, none the less it is a valuable coin and worthy of extensive efforts to restore it to it's original splendor. Then I can show it to my coin collecting friends with pride. They might even be complementary of the quality of the restoration. I also could enter my restored nickel in a coin show for others to admire. In the future I may tire of owning this nickel and decide to consign it for sale at a large coin auction venue.

As it happens, I also have a 1914 Buffalo nickel that is in almost perfect uncirculated condition. It's coin features are sharp and fresh and it looks shiny and new. In spite of it's condition, it is not a valuable coin. 1914 nickels are much more common and are easy to find.

Wouldn't it make sense for me to use the 1914 nickel to restore my 1913 nickel? I could very carefully and accurately "re-stamp" that 4 to make it look like a 3. If I do it well enough, even the most experienced coin collectors may not be able to tell the difference. It would even be higher quality because it would have the original coin factory features that would would be impossible to exactly duplicate in a restoration.

If a collector did see that it was a re-stamp, I would explain that the 1914 coin was made in the same factory, on the same equipment, with the same materials, and by the same coin-making people as the 1913 nickel. That original nickel was in bad shape, it would have been much more work to restore it. I could also point out that the original coin features of the 1914 nickel were better than I could have done for the 1913 nickel. Doesn't that make it a "better" nickel? So what is the difference?

And furthermore, that "3" is just a number. I do have title and proof of ownership of the 1913 nickel, so again, what is the difference? Haven't I rewarded the hobby by allowing my fellow collectors to enjoy, discuss, and critique my valuable nickel? And isn't that re-stamped nickel higher quality than the restored original nickel would have been?

So please, share your thoughts and help me decide what to do with my nickels.

Restore, or Re-coin, that is the question.

[PAUL K]

Originally Posted by Alan Reed

Reading this thread, I see it has transitioned from an auction price thread to a re-stamping, re-bodying, re-tagging thread.

Interesting to see the varying and changing ideas and opinions on this subject.

I have been accurately described as a guy with an opinion about most things, and this subject is no exception, but I will not share my opinion here.

But, I do have a question for anyone willing to reply. I am an amateur coin collector and am considering what may described as a coin restoration.

I have this valuable 1913 Buffalo nickel that has had a hard life. It has had extensive use and circulation resulting in significant wear to the front and back of the coin. It is barely recognizable as a 1913 nickel. I suspect if this coin were made from steel, it would have rust, maybe even rust perforation.

Restoring my 1913 nickel is going to be a very big job. I will need to refinish every tiny detail of every shape and surface on both sides. It will take many hours and will be very expensive.

But, none the less it is a valuable coin and worthy of extensive efforts to restore it to it's original splendor. Then I can show it to my coin collecting friends with pride. They might even be complementary of the quality of the restoration. I also could enter my restored nickel in a coin show for others to admire. In the future I may tire of owning this nickel and decide to consign it for sale at a large coin auction venue.

As it happens, I also have a 1914 Buffalo nickel that is in almost perfect uncirculated condition. It's coin features are sharp and fresh and it looks shiny and new. In spite of it's condition, it is not a valuable coin. 1914 nickels are much more common and are easy to find.

Wouldn't it make sense for me to use the 1914 nickel to restore my 1913 nickel? I could very carefully and accurately "re-stamp" that 4 to make it look like a 3. If I do it well enough, even the most experienced coin collectors may not be able to tell the difference. It would even be higher quality because it would have the original coin factory features that would would be impossible to exactly duplicate in a restoration.

If a collector did see that it was a re-stamp, I would explain that the 1914 coin was made in the same factory, on the same equipment, with the same materials, and by the same coin-making people as the 1913 nickel. That original nickel was in bad shape, it would have been much more work to restore it. I could also point out that the original coin features of the 1914 nickel were better than I could have done for the 1913 nickel. Doesn't that make it a "better" nickel? So what is the difference?

And furthermore, that "3" is just a number. I do have title and proof of ownership of the 1913 nickel, so again, what is the difference? Haven't I rewarded the hobby by allowing my fellow collectors to enjoy, discuss, and critique my valuable nickel? And isn't that re-stamped nickel higher quality than the restored original nickel would have been?

So please, share your thoughts and help me decide what to do with my nickels.

Restore, or Re-coin, that is the question.

Hi Alan, being an ex-ammeture coin collector I'd be happy to help you with your nickel. The way I see it is you have a few options:

Totally restore the nickel, which would ruin any of its originality, but if done right it'd bring in the dough at a televised auction.

Leave the nickel "as is" but you'd probably leave money on the table if you decide to sell it down the road. You'd eliminate the big dollar potential buyers, because they'd have no idea how to properly restore the nickel.

You could section the date code off the nickel and carefully install it on the 1914 nickel. That way you could install the 1914 date on the original nickel and not be out five cents.

You could section the date code from your nickel and sell the date code to another collector whom may have a mint condition 1913 nickel that's missing it's date code. You'd also have a known original 1913 nickel (missing it's date code) that could be sold to another collector whom may come across a 1913 dated part of a nickel in Switzerland.

You could carefully graft the 1913 date code onto a more common Jefferson nickel. Sell it at auction and claim "that you were told" this is an all original 1913 Nickel by the previous owner and probably sell it for decent money.

Or you could start a thread on every coin collecting Website and lobby for someone to reproduce the 1913 nickel because there is a need for them.

I hope these options help. I'll give you the same offer as I did with the rare carburetors. For half the going rate of a nice original 1913 nickel I will happily sell you a totally authentic looking converted Jefferson nickel that looks identical to the real deal.

[Alan Reed]

Originally Posted by PAUL K

Hi Alan, being an ex-ammeture coin collector I'd be happy to help you with your nickel. The way I see it is you have a few options:

Totally restore the nickel, which would ruin any of its originality, but if done right it'd bring in the dough at a televised auction.

Leave the nickel "as is" but you'd probably leave money on the table if you decide to sell it down the road. You'd eliminate the big dollar potential buyers, because they'd have no idea how to properly restore the nickel.

You could section the date code off the nickel and carefully install it on the 1914 nickel. That way you could install the 1914 date on the original nickel and not be out five cents.

You could section the date code from your nickel and sell the date code to another collector whom may have a mint condition 1913 nickel that's missing it's date code. You'd also have a known original 1913 nickel (missing it's date code) that could be sold to another collector whom may come across a 1913 dated part of a nickel in Switzerland.

You could carefully graft the 1913 date code onto a more common Jefferson nickel. Sell it at auction and claim "that you were told" this is an all original 1913 Nickel by the previous owner and probably sell it for decent money.

Or you could start a thread on every coin collecting Website and lobby for someone to reproduce the 1913 nickel because there is a need for them.

I hope these options help. I'll give you the same offer as I did with the rare carburetors. For half the going rate of a nice original 1913 nickel I will happily sell you a totally authentic looking converted Jefferson nickel that looks identical to the real deal.

Hi Paul,

Thank you for your thoughtful and well articulated reply to my post. Clearly you understood the point I was trying to make, and your reply reinforces my point very nicely.

Alan

[RamAirBirds]

Mcronk & Baron,
For Reference.
My C118 "XW" Block Auto GTO has the FULL CAST IN #2506 number
The E278 "WU" Block (recently sold) BlackBird had the last digits ground and stamped in #2506
I was going to point out that you were correct in your comments but figured this would be a good way to do so.
RA

[joegpho]

Well, I didn't mean to stir up a hornet nest regarding original blocks!
(Glad I'm a GP guy. Anyone have a line on a 69 WL Code 428 HO manual transmission block?)
I just want the truth (I can handle it!)
If a block is an SR block but is otherwise correct - fine. A restamp? Fine.
It is just with the amount these cars are going for, I just want full disclosure.
There might be a point that I spend over $100K on a car (doubtful) - but at that level you can bet I will do my research.

I'm grateful that my GP has its "born-with" block - and ditto for my father's 65 421 HO 4spd Catalina.

[PAUL K]

A little off subject but it's been brought up in this thread. In regards to restamped blocks I'm finding it intersting that it doesn't seem to be much of an issue whether a block is a re-stamped or actually the original.

Maybe someone can explain why an original stamped carburetor or distributor sells for good money but restamps are a dime a dozen?

What are folks doing with these OEM carburetors and distributors? I always assumed it was to make an original car correct.... Maybe I'm missing something??

Ram Air V carburetors bring in probably the biggest dough of them all.... I could easily build a different model carburetor that would outperform an original dated RAV carb in everyway, look identical and stamp the correct numbers for about half the going rate. If their are any takers send me a PM. Same goes for Ram Air and Super Duty Q-jets.

[turbo69bird]

Originally Posted by PAUL K

A little off subject but it's been brought up in this thread. In regards to restamped blocks I'm finding it intersting that it doesn't seem to be much of an issue whether a block is a re-stamped or actually the original.

Maybe someone can explain why an original stamped carburetor or distributor sells for good money but restamps are a dime a dozen?

What are folks doing with these OEM carburetors and distributors? I always assumed it was to make an original car correct.... Maybe I'm missing something??

Ram Air V carburetors bring in probably the biggest dough of them all.... I could easily build a different model carburetor that would outperform an original dated RAV carb in everyway, look identical and stamp the correct numbers for about half the going rate. If their are any takers send me a PM. Same goes for Ram Air and Super Duty Q-jets.

I think if it was done absolutely correctly so that even the best of the best couldn’t tell the difference it wouldn’t really matter. it’s the fact that most restamps are later carter .junk carbs etc or clearly not originals Also it’s not really appealed to apples because it woukd have to be taking a REAL 273 and stamping it as another 273 to be equivalent as I suggested . So yeah if you took a 7028273 and restamped it as a 7029273 I’d be fine w it. That’s what I am saying Not taking a 262 or something else and stamping it as a 273
That’s differnt . That’s like what I said before it’s like some knucklehead taking a 350 HO and stamping it as a RAIIi or RAIV.
Like for like, to me shouldn’t matter very much. But my real point was I’d rather see a SR or counter case for a Muncie being counted equal to the original rather than a restamp and if that happened you wouldn’t need a restamp.

I see your point Paul. I really do . Ive felt this way myself, before but if the block didn’t know what it was gonna be stamped when it got there and it could have had 4 different stamps GTO Vs firebird , auto Vs stick then I really don’t see a difference. It’s the same block . (And the elites have been doing this for along time anyway)

I feel the same about a rebody . I’d rather see an all jig welded pintiac body from a 6 popper or 350 or something than I’d want to see a real 400 car rusted to **** welded together w China metal in some clowns backyard. Never had anything to do w a Pontiac factory , not US metal, stitched up by some fool that’s some how better than a rust free all Pontiac all GM metal body ? I don’t see the logic in that . What if you found a brand new fisher body left over never stamped would you use it or throw it away?

I realize there’s some grey area but you have to agree there’s some logic to what I saying as well . I’ve never done either , I’m not even saying I would but in theory it makes more sense in some cases. However the point is what if you did rebody or restamp and it was accepted everyone agreed that if you stamped an honorable XXX after the restamp it wouldn‘t DOC any money or points .shouldn’t that be more honorable? A gentleman’s agreement?? Wouldn’t that kill off the corruption, right quick? Cause I PROMISE you there are people making good damn money off HIDDEN well done, restamps all day every day! This would take it out of the shadows and into a legitimate business model .

[PAUL K]

Originally Posted by joegpho

Well, I didn't mean to stir up a hornet nest regarding original blocks!
(Glad I'm a GP guy. Anyone have a line on a 69 WL Code 428 HO manual transmission block?)
I just want the truth (I can handle it!)
If a block is an SR block but is otherwise correct - fine. A restamp? Fine.
It is just with the amount these cars are going for, I just want full disclosure.
There might be a point that I spend over $100K on a car (doubtful) - but at that level you can bet I will do my research.

I'm grateful that my GP has its "born-with" block - and ditto for my father's 65 421 HO 4spd Catalina.

I'm glad you brought it up. I find the responses interesting. I think the next subject should be re-bodied cars. After all these years I thought that was a big deal. Now it's looking like it wouldn't matter if a million dollar GTO was originally a 350 2 bbl Skylark as long as it has the right VIN and numbers stamped throughout.... Learn something new everyday.

[RamAirBirds]

Originally Posted by PAUL K

I'm glad you brought it up. I find the responses interesting. I think the next subject should be re-bodied cars. After all these years I thought that was a big deal. Now it's looking like it wouldn't matter if a million dollar GTO was originally a 350 2 bbl Skylark as long as it has the right VIN and numbers stamped throughout.... Learn something new everyday.

Now we hit the "Gray" area.
As we know the consensus was that tampering with the VIN tag and relative numbers was a federal offense. Now, I do know that i read not long ago that Barrett Jackson (AKA Grin & Bear it Jackson) was instrumental in helping pass some sort of legislation that made it allowable to "remove" both a body and VIN tag in the process of restoration. This was because the process today of restoring a concourse car made it desirable to remove the VIN during restoration. Also they had many problems over the years with cars being inspected at auction. Can you still buy the rivets on ebay? They used to remove those listings long long ago but i think that they allowed them to stay up in recent years. I have not confirmed this yet. Anyhow this legislation spelled out removing a VIN from a car if it was to be re-installed on the SAME car so.....the idea of Re-Body or using a Lemans to make a Judge is just what is stated at start of topic...Gray.
We all know it happens though.

[RamAirBirds]

This link should work.

[EMAIL="https://journal.classiccars.com/2022/07/22/new-vin-law-driven-by-barrett-jackson-goes-into-effect-today/

[RamAirBirds]

Sorry everyone.
Just google
BARRETT JACKSON VIN TAG LEGISLATION.
Lots of info / articles

[PAUL K]

Originally Posted by RamAirBirds

Sorry everyone.
Just google
BARRETT JACKSON VIN TAG LEGISLATION.
Lots of info / articles

Thanks.... I didn't finish Law School but remember altering numbers to increase the value of something fell into a Counterfeiting area. I always thought that would cover stamping VIN numbers on engine blocks to make them appear as original. I guess this thread would be a good argument of how one was really not increasing the value.

[turbo69bird]

So back to Pontiacs not coins, cause idk anything about coins . But I do have a like new GM firebird wood wheel here. I know people have used reproduction wood wheels on their cars. Is that Ok? Do they have an obligation to tell people at sale? What about door handles? Lights? Headlight buckets? Carpet??? Or is it because those don’t have a stamp it’s OK? How about enamel Vs laquer? Aftermarket bearings? Reproduction glass w date codes? This IS a sticky subject.

My original point never was that people SHOULD restamp. Or I’d have restamped a block, not rebuilt a nice SR block from Stephens for my car, My point was that guys being honorable and showing an SR block or dropping in an equivalent block but w a differnt stamp ,or differnt VIN , shouldn’t get hammered while guys restanping get top dollar .

There’s a better way .

[turbo69bird]

So my thoughts on this subject may differ from many, there’s likely more than one reason . One is the RAV thing. The part numbers are all over the place , same blocks may have a DS engineering number or a WY block, cast number may be ground off on one and a new number added. Vs one the new number was left but there’s no difference you can find .
The V stuff seems to have no rhyme or reason .

But there’s also another reason .
As stated before
My car was a dealer owned race car. The second day they swapped out the short block . They being, the DEALER. The car was set up a certain way for racing was even ordered special, and the block was also changed out for the as cast 2506. That was balanced and blue printed. Again this was done by the dealer! Through the years I’d talk to someone (not always someone within the collector car hobby ) and. The first thing they’d say “is it numbers matching.” So I’d tell the story and they’d look at me like the car had no value now. And I’d think F off !
That same person would say a royal bobcat was so valuable it had a dealer installed 428 , or a Comanche was a special edition, or a macho, or a ligebfelter, comp TA , or an SLP, or IDOJ , or some giveaway car. BLA blah blah .

I’m thinking yeah my car was altered BY THE DEALER too moron!
It’s very frustrating . Especially since it was still a 2506 block and it was the block in the car most 99.999999 of its life and certainly it’s entire time raced by the dealer and most likely when sold
To the public..

But for some reason , my car isn’t considered numbers matching. But all those cars would be? My car even had a shift light tach added by the dealer for 70 season when they got the RAV engine for the 70 car . Is that considered dealer installed? So forgive me if I dont exactly give a SH@T about the traditional numbers matching born with theories that the rest have grown to cherish so much .
My car was what all those other cars wanted to be when they grew up.
When those cars were bought and the owner went to the speed shop to bolt stuff on they were trying to build (and emulate) my car and all the other race cars dealers had back in the day . Yet someone is put on a pedestal for not using their car? Not enjoying it.
I’d go to a show the way the dealer had the car and I’d get put in modified class but a ralyal bobcat, SLP or a macho isn’t? Like my car was built in some clowns garage .
People can put whatever value on these cars they want, but when I go to a restoration shop and they tell me to restore my car to stock, it’d be worth more , I think are you out of your freaking mind? I’m gonna restore this car to its full on glory to its as raced condition because no one would give a crap about those other cars if it wasn’t for cars like mine kicking azz and taking names at the track and getting in magazines and advertisements . Pick up any magazine of the day when these cars were new and it was all about how they performed at the track . All the articles were testing these cars performance.. now you go to a show and all you find is showroom stock queens there’s ZERO representation of what these cars were at the time . At least the Chevy guys get it and have some yenko cars set up to as raced or day 2.

Now add in that I was told for years stephens never had this or that, like an aluminum block . Even though there was an article written about it in 1972! For years and years people laughed like that wasn’t true factory never made that well now we’ve found about 10 of them . I laugh my azz off every time Someone says that wasn’t done by Pontiac about something . Cause they did all kinds of crazy stuff. Like a RAII block w no casting pad on c118 while others on that day did have a casting pad. Or engineering blocks w dry sump oiling provisions that weren’t SD 455 blocks .

Anyway I’m not a traditionalist anymore and that’s a big part of why .

[PAUL K]

Originally Posted by turbo69bird

My car was a dealer owned race car. The second day they swapped out the short block . They being, the DEALER. The car was set up a certain way for racing was even ordered special, and the block was also changed out for the as cast 2506. That was balanced and blue printed. Again this was done by the dealer! Through the years I’d talk to someone (not always someone within the collector car hobby ) and. The first thing they’d say “is it numbers matching.” So I’d tell the story and they’d look at me like the car had no value now. And I’d think F off !
That same person would say a royal bobcat was so valuable it had a dealer installed 428 , or a Comanche was a special edition, or a macho, or a ligebfelter, comp TA , or an SLP, or IDOJ , or some giveaway car. BLA blah blah . .

You have a bit of a unique situation, but not alone. There are original factory racecars out there and they just don't command a lot of money compared to a non-racecar regardless whether they have their original engine or not. My buddy owns an original 72 455 HO Formula car that has lived it's life as a Super Stock car since day one. It's worth a Helluva lot less money (even thought it has less than 500 miles on it) than a compareble 72 Formula HO car that didn't live it's life as a racecar.

Even cars with a lot of recognition don't get a lot of money:

Jim Wangers red 74 TA sold for $6k as a roller when it was put up for sale.

Pete McCarthy put his 67 Ram Air GTO for sale and couldn't find a serious buyer.

In fact the entire Wangers collection brought in less than expected money due to them being modified and missing original engines and numbered parts.

Who knows maybe somewhere down the road someone will find their original engines over in Europe and upgrade them to top buck auction cars.

Remember the guy that spent a crap ton of money purchasing and restoring the missing SD421 LeMans and couldn't sell it for a fraction of what he had into it.... I believe most these high dollar auction cars are purchased as an investment with little to no intention of ever driving them.... Kind of a sad deal, IMO.

[turbo69bird]

Originally Posted by PAUL K

You have a bit of a unique situation, but not alone. There are original factory racecars out there and they just don't command a lot of money compared to a non-racecar regardless whether they have their original engine or not. My buddy owns an original 72 455 HO Formula car that has lived it's life as a Super Stock car since day one. It's worth a Helluva lot less money (even thought it has less than 500 miles on it) than a compareble 72 Formula HO car that didn't live it's life as a racecar.

Even cars with a lot of recognition don't get a lot of money:

Jim Wangers red 74 TA sold for $6k as a roller when it was put up for sale.

Pete McCarthy put his 67 Ram Air GTO for sale and couldn't find a serious buyer.

In fact the entire Wangers collection brought in less than expected money due to them being modified and missing original engines and numbered parts.

Who knows maybe somewhere down the road someone will find their original engines over in Europe and upgrade them to top buck auction cars.

Remember the guy that spent a crap ton of money purchasing and restoring the missing SD421 LeMans and couldn't sell it for a fraction of what he had into it.... I believe most these high dollar auction cars are purchased as an investment with little to no intention of ever driving them.... Kind of a sad deal, IMO.

Well I wouldn‘t say my car would bring less money as a STOCK race car on 6 inch slicks that was raced by a dealer . Jim mino’s car was a race car too My car was raced by a dealer that had a bunch of race cars in 64 68 69 70 71 72 not some Joe blow. But whatever you wanna think . Doesn’t really matter cause it’s not for sale and likely never will be .

Big difference between my car and a super stocker, has never been caged , never been cut up. Raced on a 6 inch slick Still has its full original interior , 15k original miles and tight as a new car the doors shut better than any 69 I’ve ever seen and I’ve had 21 of them. But whatever. Yeah it’s not worth anything . OK YUP.

Funny cause I know of other, not raced 69 RAIV birds that were in a lot worse shape than mine that’s for sure had a TON of money spent on their restorations , but somehow that’s different, because mine was raced . LMAO pathetic.

[turbo69bird]

Originally Posted by turbo69bird

Well I wouldn‘t say my car would bring less money as a STOCK race car on 6 inch slicks that was raced by a dealer . Jim mino’s car was a race car too My car was raced by a dealer that had a bunch of race cars in 64 68 69 70 71 72 not some Joe blow. But whatever you wanna think . Doesn’t really matter cause it’s not for sale and likely never will be .

Big difference between my car and a super stocker, has never been caged , never been cut up. Raced on a 6 inch slick Still has its full original interior , 15k original miles and tight as a new car the doors shut better than any 69 I’ve ever seen and I’ve had 21 of them. But whatever. Yeah it’s not worth anything . OK YUP.

Funny cause I know of other, not raced 69 RAIV birds that were in a lot worse shape than mine that’s for sure had a TON of money spent on their restorations , but somehow that’s different, because mine was raced . LMAO pathetic.

I could have had this or a 69 RAIV convertible I had both in my garage I chose this over that, it wasn’t even close !